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About Mufasa

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    Meet Timothy.
  • Birthday 07/24/1991

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  1. Thanks- that's helpful info. I'll have to read more about the dot-com bubble. If nothing else, cryptocurrencies have piqued my interested in financed. Obviously you know a lot more about the subject than I do. For the record, I do think a vast majority of cryptos will (and should) fail.
  2. Not really. We've already established an investment, even a speculative one, is not gambling, right? With Amazon or Google, you'd have to actually look at the company, see what they have to offer, and decide whether it seems like it will be valuable. The same is true of cryptos -- a lot of them are totally worthless, but some of them actually seem to provide useful services and possibilities.
  3. That's fair. But if you are comparing cryptos to the dotcom bubble (a comparison which I don't disagree with), would it have been haram to invest in Amazon or Google in '99?
  4. Anyway, in terms of my own feelings re: investing now, after getting lots of opinions, I'll probably wait until more scholars have more to say. It seems a very fresh topic and the scholarship is not fully up to speed. I have seen opinions supportive, and, at least from Mo's source, opinions opposed. But I feel very unconvinced. My main concern is that, if tomorrow a currency were to BOOM, it wouldn't feel like honest money to me. I'm not sure that any investment would, though. That said, I did put a very small amount into Ripple when it hit its *probable* rock bottom. I feel pretty confident that Ripple is in a league of its own. It's more out of personal interest in seeing how it all works.
  5. I think this is Mo's point though, not his. He didn't say anything about uncertainty or a bubble. Your right that his final fatwa is pending; he is unsympathetic to the first opinion. But I guess we'll see what he ultimately says--if he publishes more.
  6. To Mo, because I feel like I'm being pulled into an argument I wasn't going for at this point: -What I noted in the beginning (and which everyone knows) is that the future of cryptocurrency is uncertain. Even if cryptos take off--or if blockchain does--that means nothing of the future, for example, of Bitcoin, which is simply the first--not the most efficient. So yeah, it's based on a lot of excitement; the thing is, the value has flailed a lot in the last few months, but it will ultimately correct itself. I think that reflects that there is a lot of *real* money in there and people are going to let it sit. Right now a lot of it is driven by people fearing they will miss out--that's the nature of it being new, now mainstream, and quite easy to buy-in. But we don't know it's future. You might *think* it's a bubble. You don't know it's a bubble. -Well, I definitely do not think that a firm like Bridgewater is going to be investing their clients or advising others to invest in Bitcoin. There's no doubt it's a risky investment, which I've noted from the very beginning. (though, their clients would not have been complaining had they had the foresight to invest a few years ago, would they?) However--and this is based on subjective experience--there are 'tons' of young people working at companies like Bridgewater who are personally investing in Bitcoin. This I know from friends who work at similar firms in New York. While I don't know much about finance, since I've become intrigued, I have you on your anti-crypto crusade, but I do also have them whispering in my ear too. They're obviously not putting all their money in cryptos; but they are diversifying within the crypto world and betting on it to work out. -But none of this really addresses the issues I have. I have no delusions about whether cryptos are a *safe* investment. But where's the hadith that says it's only OK to invest if global investment corporations A-Okay it? Oh, but he himself doesn't seem to make that point at all. Just the opposite, he says: "The fact that people are using them as investments does not negate their currency feature. It just gives them similarity to investing in foreign currencies." I figured this implies Bitcoin is like a currency --> you can invest in a currency --> therefore that people use it as an investment is not problematic, right? Or did I misunderstand it? And this is the point. I don't think there's much a consensus on Bitcoin/cryptos.
  7. Interesting. I only skimmed it just now, but where does he say the point about it being "extreme gharar" to buy-hold-sell?
  8. I don't doubt what's in these articles. But it's not really what you claimed in your first post. It doesn't say anything about those who are interested as being "amateurs" - that's your extrapolation. I kind of doubt a majority of traditional investors have any clue about, let alone totally understand, Bitcoin, however. The first article actually indicates that traditional investors, though once skeptical, are becoming increasingly interested in Bitcoin.
  9. Thank you, I will read this later today. Looks helpful. OK- Source? I don't get this. You can't say "They aren't aiming to create a cryptocurrency" when they literally have done so--built around the same idea of a public/consensus-based ledger (though the release of 'coins' is managed differently than the others). They're trying to use this currency toward a new transfer system. But the new transfer system relies on the new currency. If it's "useless to launder money," then your point 3 is not relevant to Ripple? That was my question.
  10. For what it's worth, I'm not adverse to the idea that cryptos might be haram. But I haven't been convinced by the reasoning. The "extreme gharar" seems the most problematic aspect to me. Frankly, I'm not sure I understand completely why any investment is not haram. But I see points 1 and 2 that you've provided as highly conditional/contextual and presumptuous.
  11. Bitcoin has grown exponentially since this study (a methodology of which seems fishy imo). Bitcoin's really mainstream now. I know tons of financially savvy people who have bought in simply for investment-sake. Mainstream media outlets now cover crpyto-market changes. I think y'all are just late to the game. Here is a more recent sources: But all of this is also relevant specifically to Bitcoin or currencies, like monero, which have been used for this sort of stuff. I assume a company like Ripple, which is trying to build relations with actual banks, would not be used for these purposes.
  12. I'm dropping this here to read later Beyond the Bitcoin Bubble: : https://www.nytimes.com/2018/01/16/magazine/beyond-the-bitcoin-bubble.html?hp&action=click&pgtype=Homepage&clickSource=story-heading&module=first-column-region&region=top-news&WT.nav=top-news&_r=0
  13. Thanks for the info from the shaykh, Mo. The breakdown of different definitions/concepts is helpful. I do have a few short follow-up questions for you. No need to ask the shaykh, unless you so choose, but your opinion (or others) is appreciated. -1. I understand this point, in theory, but doesn't it seem odd to bring it up in terms of Bitcoin and living in the UK? That "several governments have instituted bans on it" does not make it illegal in countries where such bans have not been implemented, like the UK. That there is certain licensing needed to sell Bitcoins from dollars (at least in the US) implies some degree of sanction by the government. -2. This I see as the strongest point - hence I started this thread to see how others feel. It doesn't feel like well-earned money, unless you're actually a crypto-nerd deeply engaged with the e-sphere. But nor do investments of other sorts tbh. Is there any way to draw a line between "extreme gharar" and an acceptable level of uncertainty? Or is it a matter of opinion? -3. Is this a purely contextual/time-specific thing? I noticed you said "currently." This seems a similar point to the one Haku made, but I just feel very iffy about it at this point. I have no doubt that, when Bitcoin was running at a few bucks a coin, it was dominated by sketchy stuff. But it's now way beyond that. On the other hand, we know that the value of the US dollar is benefitted by things like war, and many of those involved with the dollar are involved in drugs, porn, weapons, etc..
  14. Thanks for your response Mo. Very helpful. Im goingto respond soon but Im on a trip now so may be MIA for a few