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Bumblebee

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  1. I am sorry but you need to look up your information more. I have checked and double checked and triple checked with several people and it is agreed the Hadith were not written down until after Mohammad PBUH died. They may have had it in their heads but nothing was recorded out of worry it would be mistaken for the Quran. The Quran was written during the Prophet's life, on scraps of paper and such and later collected. I have looked and checked everywhere and on this everyone agrees. It was after his death. Finding information about Christianity is a lot easier than Islam. There are far more books and DVDs out there and you can get a lot of information from the library. As much as I want to find out more about Islam there is a limit to my budget in how much I can spend on books. In addition there is a lot more research done about the history of Christianity, a lot more work in Bibilical archeology. There is also that the Christians I have spoken to are more willing to answer my questions. I recently asked about a single paragraph in the Bible and got a long explanation from more than one person. Any question I ask people are eager to answer. I came here for knowledge, I came here to find out! I am asking questions so my knowledge of Christianity does not exede my knowledge of Islam and all I have gotten is people telling me go look it up, go away you are annoying us. I do not think I shall continue to post here anymore. I am searching, trying to reafirm my faith, but all I have gotten is a stronger push away from Islam.
  2. No, I am not a missionary, nor am I even Christian. I am Muslim born and raised but I do like to think and ask questions, which I was given to understand growing up Muslim, is a good thing. My father has told me one reason many Christians became Muslim is because they were not allowed to ask questions and got no answers. I did not say I agree with the Gospels or that I even think them valid and correct. No, I know for a fact the Gospels were grossly changed and that even most Biblical scholars will atest to that. Not only do they contradict each other they are historically inacurate. For example, King Harod did not send out an order to kill every male child under the age of 2, they know this because Josephus, a Jewish historian recorded Harod's brutal acts in detail but never mentioned this. It is doubted Jesus was even born in Bethelhem but that it was changed to fit an Old Testament prophecy. I merely wanted to know how do we know that the Hadith were accurate? No r-z is incorrect, the Hadith were not recorded while the Prophet PBUH was alive. In fact it was forbiddon, out of fear that they would be mixed up with the Quran. Hadith were an oral tradition that initially was passed from person to person, hence the list of names attached to each, and as the people started to die it was decided that they should be written down. Many historians have debated that the sources may not all be accurate and given the doubt we place on the Gospels, I wanted to know what is the defense to this argument. As for my "unfounded' doubts I consider then founded. I want to know why I believe what I believe. I want to understand more about my faith. I do not believe in blind faith but have even been told by Muslims that the more we question and find out why the stronger our faith becomes and I see that as true. The more our doubts are assured, the more reason we have to believe, to know it is right. I was given to understand Islam welcomes people asking questions. Wanting to know why. I find it rather odd and disheartening that, out of curiosity I have posted questions on a Christian board, a board they know that I am *NOT* Christian and they have provided more polite answers and more informative. I have not been rude, I have simply asked, why do we believe this.
  3. I am not talking about the divinity of Jesus. Forget the divinity of Jesus! The divine status of Jesus did not come about officially until the 4th century, during the council of Nicea. I am not talking about interpretation of the Gospels and how things were changed or now in some gospels Jesus prophesies the coming of Mohammad pbuh. I shall try to put this into as blunt terms as possible Either God deceived mankind of ALL of the Apostles were deceptive. Yes, two of the writers of the Gospels were Jesus contemporaries. John and Matthew. Think about it. If Jesus did not die on the cross and the Apostles knew this why didn't anyone say anything? If they had wouldn't it be a big deal? It isn't as if Jesus himself was in any danger. In fact it would further spit in the faces of the Romans, hey you idiots crucified the wrong man! The Apostles had nothing to gain by lying about this back then. Up until the Council of Nicea many people did not think of Jesus as devine. Or maybe they didn't know that Jesus was to be traded but then why did God keep this from mankind? I have read people think Jesus actually ended up on the cross but passed out because God would not deceive. Yes, I know the divinity came later, yes I know the Bible is open to interpretation. The crucifixion was the start. Then when Jesus was raised by God people say him so they thought he had risen from the dead and that was the stone that started the avalanche. Now had people know he had never been dead. There is nothing. Nothing that Jesus was not crucified. There was no reason to hide this. The Apostles had no reason to hide this, had more reason to share it with the world.
  4. Men need to learn some self control. Instead of putting the blame on themselves, on controlling themselves, they just hide the women. Very much like the Church during the Medieval times. Women are bad, woman are the start of evil. Women tempt. Shall we next have the Muslim equivalent of the witch hunts when women start to think too much perhaps? I agree. Aren't we all tempted in life and expected to control ourselves? In Ramadan, fasting, you see and smell food everywhere. You cannot go out without being tempted by food. What does this mean? That all stores and supermarkets must close? That we must lock ourselves in our houses and not go to work? And who says women aren't tempted by men? Why aren't men required to cover so fully and to hide themselves?
  5. I see, so women aren't allowed to be leaders or speakers. So, women cannot be managers in firms where they talk in front of men? Women "corrept" men? So you are saying there is no corruption when men rule? Fascinating.
  6. Something that has also recently had me thinking. The arguments against the Gospels and their various interpretations. I know and agree completely that the Gospels have been changed. Nearly every historian agrees on this. In addition dozens of Gospels were rejected from the Bible, Gospels that are now coming forward. The Gospels were recorded by men, changed by men to fit their own goals But what of the Hadith? How much different are they from that? The Hadith are not the word of God, they are the words of Mohammad PBUH, recorded long after he died. Did God memorize the Hadith, like he did the Quran? Lists of people supporting a Hadith can easily be made to support some view or purpose that people want. Can it not be said that not all are correct, that maybe even some have been changed?
  7. Bumblebee

    Our purpose

    Something I thought of recently during a talk with a friend of mine. Why are we here, what is the ultimate test of life Is it that we are being tested on the choices that we make, to be good or bad? To treat others well and concern ourselves with others? To be good people? Or is it a test of choosing the correct faith? It can lead to very different possibilities. I mean if it is mainly based on faith than bad Muslims can and will end up in heaven and very devout people of other religions, people who are good and moral will end up in Hell simply because they worship the wrong God. On the other hand if it is based on the choices that we make, good and bad then bad Muslims, even if they worship correctly, believe correctly, can end up in Hell while good followers of other faiths can end up in heaven. People like Mother Theresa. There are a lot of good people out there, fiercely devoted to their own faiths but good nonetheless, some who are even better in character and morality than some Muslims. People like Mother Theresa for a start. It brings to mind what a friend told me about Christianity. That if you accept Christ as the Savior you will go to Heaven no matter what you do. You can be gay and a killer and thief but if you accept Christ you will go to heaven. Whereas no matter how good a person you are if you do not accept Jesus you will go to Hell. In a way are we the same or are we any different?
  8. Yes and all of that is in Christianity to prove that he is alive, to them to prove that he rose from the grave No actually no the crucifixtion came first, the divinity of Jesus came later. It was not decided that Jesus was devine until the council of Nicea which took place in the 4th century, hundreds of years later but up until then people still believed Jesus had been crucified just not all believed he was devine. And it was not until much later that the trinity idea was created. In fact I have read some arguments that some Muslims believe he was put on the cross and fainted and so was still alive when he was taken off because it is not in the nature of God to decieve, not my own idea. Nearly every bit of information and belief from that time says that Jesus was crucified. There are no obscure Christian sects from back then the says Jesus was never on the cross. Why? Why is this vital bit of information hidden from all? If Jesus was not crucified are we saying the apostles lied?
  9. I have to say it's frustrating. If we look back on human history nearly everything in the last two thousands years is either directly or indirectly influenced by this one moment in history, what happened to Jesus and how people interpret it. The separation of all three major faiths mainly come down to this one moment. This key moment. And after that everything was influenced by it. You could say from the colonization of America to the Holocaust were all influenced by it. People came to America to escape religious persecution. It is suspected that the bad name of Judas Iscariot, betraying Jesus, his association to Jews even though Jesus was a Jew] influenced Hitler And it is almost like God is trying to keep this moment in history unclear. Verses out of the Bible could be interpreted to support Islam or Christianity. I have recently read some Muslims interpret lines of the Gospel to mean Mohammad pbuh while Christians believe it is the Holy Spirit. Nothing historically defining can be found to prove one way or the other. If Jesus's followers knew he was not going to die on the cross why don't we see any evidence of it? In some ways one could almost say they betrayed the trust of Jesus? But these were good people. They would not do that. Unless they did not know but then some could say, as I have read, that God was being deceitful. Some say that as God does not deceive than maybe no crucifixion ever happened but then why all this history? In some ways it seems to come down to faith. A person has to decide what view to take but that seems almost harsh. All historical evidence points to Jesus being crucified. How can anyone expect the Christians to just change? To many many people this is their faith, their religion. There are people who give up their lives, devote their lives to this belief. Growing up I was sometimes given just the impression the Bible was changed, Christians must know they are following something off or luny, but to them it is not so. To ask a Christian to give up on Christ is like asking a Muslim to give up on Mohammad pbuh.
  10. First off, my apologies. It seems I put this in the wrong topic. I should have put it in the Q and A area While I appreciate everyone I must say no one has answer my question. I am talking about the first three centuries of Christianity. Before the council of Nicea, before the decisions on whether Jesus was devine or not. I am not asking about the interpretation of the scripture itself. I know about how some say "son of God" in that sense versus the literal sense. But crucified or not isn't really a matter of interpretation. He either died on the cross or not. The start of Christianity were very chaotic years. I am afraid no one has answered anything of what I asked. I am talking about the first three centuries of Christianity. Before the council of Nicea, before the decisions on whether Jesus was devine or not. It was a time when Christians were still considered Jews and when people were just starting to preach to gentiles, when people were asking whether or not you had to be circumcised and when Rome wasn't hunting down Christians but would arrest you if you were turned in. Then you would either make a public sacrifice to the Gods or be killed. It was also a time of many many different sects of Christianity. The Quran says Jesus was not crucified. The Quran came down 600 years after the "death" of Christ. If Jesus was not crucified then why don't we have any word on it in history? Every Gospel, every testament that comes down, that has been discovered, even ones that contradict each other, even ones that are very different all have one thing in common, Jesus Christ was crucified. Texts are being found and people are more open of contradictions in the Bible, people talk freely of the Council of Nicea, then why not this? Why is there no word of Jesus not dying from that period? If his followers knew why didn't they preach this? Why leave the masses in ignorance? It was not as if Jesus was in any danger. He was in heaven. This was a time before the devine nature of Jesus so it would have been taken happily. Not as a redeeming sacrifice but a miracle from God. Even before the divinity of Jesus was set people were willing to die because they believed in him, believed he was crucified. People would walk out into the arena to be tortured under the belief they were following Jesus, were willing to die for this belief. Where were the companions of his? If Jesus did not die on the cross where is this message? We don't even hear of "lunatic" "heretical" preachings of people who claimed Jesus did not die. In this day and age when you can contradict the church without worry and scientists are discovering things from the "Tomb" of Jesus to the "Gospel of Mary Magdalene" and "the Gospel of Judas" there would be no reason to hide this. And what is worse is we don't see any evidence of it. That people were left to believe a false idea. That not even Jesus followers who "survived" him corrected this? In a way then you cannot blame people, blame what eventually happened. This lack of knowledge, this misinterpretation of things, is the reason for Christianity. The main event, that which started it all was the crucifixion. People were dying because they believed Jesus's preaching, believed he died on the cross a martyr. Often growing up I was given the impression that people in the past were just changing the Bible, taking advantage of people, but people believed this, people still with all their hears, just as much as Muslims believe in Allah believe in this. Would give their lives for it. The Crucifixion of Jesus is the key moment, that one thing that started Christianity, even before declaring Jesus devine it was this one thing. Islam and the Quran did not come for another 600 years. It is the moment where things divide. This one moment and the very early years that led up to Jesus being made devine. I am not asking about his being devine or anything after that, or interpretation. It really isn't a thing based on interpretation. Crucified or not. Not much to be changed in that or seen deeper into it. Even before the Gospels when people were preaching by word of mouth this was a key moment. As for the Jonestown example it has nothing to do with my question. I was merely using it as an example for Extempers. One reason I am not for blind faith and simply accepting things. It has nothing to do with my question.
  11. Ah no, you misunderstand my question. I know that the idea of the trinity was not created until hundreds of years later. The divine status of Jesus was not established until the Council of Nicea. People debated after that on how Christianity could be considered monotheistic. But even before that, from early on people did universaly accept that Jesus died on the cross. In a time when there were numerous forms of Christianity and when Christians were still considered to be Jews. His own Apostles were writing that he died on the cross. People were being killed in Roman theatres as early as the first century, 300 years before the council of Nicea, because they believed in Jesus, believed he died on the cross. Why did Jesus's own companions, his apostles, write that he died on the cross? It seems almost unfair and extreme to then reveal 600 years later, no Jesus didn't die on the cross, forget all that you have known. I have to say it does give a different perspective to what I was taught about Christianity [as I said I was raised Muslim] that people died for this faith, died willingly for their belief in Jesus dying on the cross barely 100 years after Jesus supposedly died. As to Extempers, I believe in asking questions, in knowing why you believe in what you do and why you dont believe in other things. I was given to understand one thing people criticize about Christianity is the inability to ask too many questions, that qustions cannot be answered, that in fact it drove some people to join Islam. By questioning our faith and getting answers it makes our faith stronger. In fact I want people to look at the Quran and test it for flaws so that when nothing is found then we have more reason to stand on it. I was given to understand Islam encouraged the asking of questions. I do not believe in blind faith. It has led people to do crazy things. Take Jonestown and the mass suicides there.
  12. First let me say, I don't mean to offend anyone with my question or any other questions I may later ask. I asked this first of a Christian friend and she did not take offense by it. I was raised Muslim but I am in searching mode, looking at all things around me, seeing what everyone has to say and why. Looking for my own answers. I know, according to Islam that Jesus Christ did not die on the cross according to Muslims. That in his place was a look alike, someone who looked like him. Possibly Simon of Cyrene or Judas Iscariot. I think it more likely Judas Iscariot who is said to have betrayed Jesus and is it not said that it was someone who betrayed him that ended up on the cross in his place? What I want to know is why the truth was not reveled until Mohammad PBUH 600 years later? As I understand it, those who were close to Jesus knew he was not going to be placed on the cross, that it was someone in his place. Then he was raised to heaven. Why then didn't they reveal this to the world? That Jesus did not die on the cross? It would have been a blow to the Romans. Yes, you tried to kill our prophet but you failed? Why keep it a secret? Furthermore two of his closest disciples, Peter and John, both write Gospels that ended up in the Bible. Why didn't they right what is called the truth? Why wait until Mohammad? In a way you could almost call Christianity the fault of Islam. If Jesus and his followers were Muslims. If the truth is Jesus did not die on the cross it should have been told. Why let people live under this false belief? Why let this idea go unchecked? Gospels were being written within the lifetimes of those who were close to Jesus, why didn't they correct this? Surely atleast at that time people would be overjoyed to know Jesus did not die on the cross? That in a way Muslims, even Jesus, his followers are all responsible for this? That for Christians to follow what is "wrong" is our own fault!
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