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Islam and the Theory of Evolution

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Thank you for your response, robert683105!

 

To clarify, I only take issue with Shanavas' interpretation of hadith--his ability to do so, &c. I stake no position on his evolutionary claims vis-a-vis Islam. That said, I hope to clarify some admittedly off-topic issues. And now, to infinity and beyond!

 

It is pertinent here to point out that shanavas, being an MD, gives quite a few medical evidences in his book for evolution about which the Hadith scholars are probably ignorant. Moreover, my Muslim friends tell me that most contemporary Imams and Islamic scholars are illiterate in scientific matters.

 

This is incorrect, though understandably so. There are several madaaris in South Africa, especially because of a need for Islamic scholars in bioethics, who have scientific training (including PhDs and MDs).

 

They tell me that most of Imams in USA are imported from countries where free press is practically non-existent.

 

Even if that were true, I'm not sure there's a straight line between a free press tangent and evolution.

 

My Muslim college mates point out to me that human reasoning is very important in Islam unlike other religions. When certain belief systems are discredited or argued against with logic and reason, many Muslims, instead of providing logical and evidence-based counterargument, use the "he-is-not-a-scholar" argument.

 

But logic is merely a method of argumentation. Islamic scholars argue logically, but from Islamic premises. In fact, logic (muntik) is a required course in the largest school of Islamic law. So when it comes to Islamic issues, I honestly think the 'he's not a scholar argument' is actually quite cogent.

 

I get frustrated. I am requesting you, please help me. Thanks.

 

I'm sorry to hear of your frustrations. Just to be clear, I'm not staking out a claim on evolution. I just have a problem with Shanavas' analysis of the hadith.

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Thank You GR. I personally believe the evolution pardigm and that Allah created everything. These are, to me, not opposing points of view. In Allah are all things not only possible, but with evidence, it is so. We just have not been shown how by Allah(swt).

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Thank you for your response, robert683105!

 

To clarify, I only take issue with Shanavas' interpretation of hadith--his ability to do so, &c.

 

>>>>Thanks for your clarification. Now you have stated that you take issue with Shanavas's interpretation, you must have read his book. Please come to the specifics. It is unethical to label a person wrong without giving specific reasons and evidence. Please refute point by point the interpretation of shanavas and show where he made wrong interpretation. That is fair to him.

Thanks

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Thanks for your clarification. Now you have stated that you take issue with Shanavas's interpretation, you must have read his book. Please come to the specifics. It is unethical to label a person wrong without giving specific reasons and evidence. Please refute point by point the interpretation of shanavas and show where he made wrong interpretation. That is fair to him.

Thanks

 

 

Thank you for your response, robert683105, and you're welcome for the clarification.

 

It seems, however, that I continue to do a poor job with my clarifications. I think the main implication of my critique is that neither Shanavas nor I are qualified to interpret the hadith. As such, a critique of his take on evolution is both not possible and unnecessary. There is no real foundation upon which the book's reasoning may stand.

 

Not to be spirited away by off-topic stuff, but I think what's fair to him (but especially us, and especially the generations of scholars who dutifully preserved the sacred knowledge before us) is to politely suggest that he gain the qualifications to interpret the hadith.

 

I hope this has actually helped clarify my position. My apologies for the misunderstanding.

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Hi

Today I talked with my Muslim classmate and a good friend about Mr. GR’s argument (“I think what's fair to him (but especially us, and especially the generations of scholars who dutifully preserved the sacred knowledge before us) is to politely suggest that he gain the qualifications to interpret the hadith. but especially us, and especially the generations of scholars who dutifully preserved the sacred knowledge before us) “

 

He advised me to ask to Mr.GR a rhetorically (pardon me) whether he believes in a flat earth because quite a few respected scholars have said “earth is glue to the back of whale called Nun while in Water, and beneath which is the Bull and under the Bull is the Rock and under the Rock is the Dust and none knows what is under the Dust save Allah.” [Reference: http://altafsir.com/Tafasir.asp?tMadhNo=0&tTafsirNo=73&tSoraNo=68&tAyahNo=1&tDisplay=yes&UserProfile=0 ]

 

My friend told that Ibn Abbas is reportedly the first one to write a tafsir of the Quran. Similarly, same story is told by Ibn Kathir (Tafsir al-Qur'an al-Azim), Al-Tabar (The History of Al-Tabari: General Introduction and From the Creation to the Flood, translated by Franz Rosenthal [state University of New York Press (SUNY), Albany, 1989], Volume 1, pp. 218-220); Qurtubi (Qurtubi’s tafsir).

 

My friend told me also that he has great respect for these scholars. They are great scholars of Islam and studied Quran and hadith very sincerely. They are humans and can make mistakes. This is an honest mistake. If they came to life today they would have rejected the Hadiths that misled them and accept that the earth is a globe and rejected a flat earth sitting on the back of a whale.

 

So, my friend told me that classical Islamic scholars can make mistakes, and due to the lack of the availability of modern scientific tools for them they probably did not fully understood the Allah’s process of creation.

 

By the way, Shanavas does not reject the Allah's hand in the creation. He most elegantly describes the relationship between creation and evolution in his book. According to him, Creation is a Divine Process and Evolution is the human observation of the process. Shanavas points out the scientific fact that genotypes (all genes in a creature) determine the phenotypes (outward appearance of the creature). According to him, if Divine Creation is a genotype (determining factor), Evolution is phenotype (outward appearance).

 

So, my classmate and shanavas make more sense for me, I being a student of paleontology.

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Hi

Today I talked with my Muslim classmate and a good friend about Mr. GR’s argument (“I think what's fair to him (but especially us, and especially the generations of scholars who dutifully preserved the sacred knowledge before us) is to politely suggest that he gain the qualifications to interpret the hadith. but especially us, and especially the generations of scholars who dutifully preserved the sacred knowledge before us) “

 

He advised me to ask to Mr.GR a rhetorically (pardon me) whether he believes in a flat earth because quite a few respected scholars have said “earth is glue to the back of whale called Nun while in Water, and beneath which is the Bull and under the Bull is the Rock and under the Rock is the Dust and none knows what is under the Dust save Allah.” [Reference: http://altafsir.com/Tafasir.asp?tMadhNo=0&tTafsirNo=73&tSoraNo=68&tAyahNo=1&tDisplay=yes&UserProfile=0 ]

 

My friend told that Ibn Abbas is reportedly the first one to write a tafsir of the Quran. Similarly, same story is told by Ibn Kathir (Tafsir al-Qur'an al-Azim), Al-Tabar (The History of Al-Tabari: General Introduction and From the Creation to the Flood, translated by Franz Rosenthal [state University of New York Press (SUNY), Albany, 1989], Volume 1, pp. 218-220); Qurtubi (Qurtubi’s tafsir).

 

My friend told me also that he has great respect for these scholars. They are great scholars of Islam and studied Quran and hadith very sincerely. They are humans and can make mistakes. This is an honest mistake. If they came to life today they would have rejected the Hadiths that misled them and accept that the earth is a globe and rejected a flat earth sitting on the back of a whale.

 

So, my friend told me that classical Islamic scholars can make mistakes, and due to the lack of the availability of modern scientific tools for them they probably did not fully understood the Allah’s process of creation.

 

By the way, Shanavas does not reject the Allah's hand in the creation. He most elegantly describes the relationship between creation and evolution in his book. According to him, Creation is a Divine Process and Evolution is the human observation of the process. Shanavas points out the scientific fact that genotypes (all genes in a creature) determine the phenotypes (outward appearance of the creature). According to him, if Divine Creation is a genotype (determining factor), Evolution is phenotype (outward appearance).

 

So, my classmate and shanavas make more sense for me, I being a student of paleontology.

 

Noted, robert683105! After some minor prodding, I think you are now exposed, alhamduliAllah.

 

Mr. Incredible, MM's very own troll, has returned.

 

Edit: In the meantime, assuming you'll be banned, inshAllah, let me address your argument.

 

Just because some scholars of Islam may have made errors in interpretation (and I haven't really looked at your sources) does not mean that I am committed to these hypothetical errors, nor does it mean I should heed the interpretation of non-scholars.

 

Hopefully your friend (and writing this feels so ridiculous; your background story keeps changing) recognizes that there are other scholars of Islam besides those you mentioned. Those scholars of Islam have not come to the conclusions (and assuming that these quoted opinions were 'conclusions' and not the scholar's documented intellectual speculation/inquiry) based on these hadith. That seems uncontroversial.

 

Assuming you're not lying about the sources (and assuming that you don't lie is a bit of a stretch), your example equally demonstrates that despite training in the Islamic sciences, mistakes can be made. This is even more reason to require it.

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Edit: In the meantime, assuming you'll be banned, inshAllah, let me address your argument.

 

I don't think he should be banned, as he was only speaking of a scholar and his thoughts on why he agrees with particular scholar. However, I don't have enough knowledge about these mentioned scholars, and therefore, I cannot comment on them. Any of us can be wrong and we may also disagree with each other. And that's okay as long as we seem to be honest in our approach and especially do not personally insult anyone in the forum, the Prophet (pbuh), and Allah (swt).

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I don't think he should be banned, as he was only speaking of a scholar and his thoughts on why he agrees with particular scholar. However, I don't have enough knowledge about these mentioned scholars, and therefore, I cannot comment on them. Any of us can be wrong and we may also disagree with each other. And that's okay as long as we seem to be honest in our approach and especially do not personally insult anyone in the forum, the Prophet (pbuh), and Allah (swt).

 

Spider, perhaps I'm being a silly wabbit, but my argument is that 'he' (if it's a dude) has revealed himself as MM's troll, who has historically been banned. As such, irrespective of what he wrote, I argue that he should be banned because that is his status on the forums. He had his chance and he lost it, essentially.

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Spider, perhaps I'm being a silly wabbit, but my argument is that 'he' (if it's a dude) has revealed himself as MM's troll, who has historically been banned. As such, irrespective of what he wrote, I argue that he should be banned because that is his status on the forums. He had his chance and he lost it, essentially.

 

Where did he reveal that?

 

And how do you know he was banned before? I couldn't find any matches with him to any other member.

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I prefer my laughs from Tom and Jerry, my hadith analysis from the scholars of Islam, and my physicals from MDs.

 

hah, nice. So when a 'scholar of Islam' talks about scientific matters (ex. evolution), s/he should have a scientific PhD as well, right? (Or MD, but that has less obvious relevance to evolution).

 

 

This is incorrect, though understandably so. There are several madaaris in South Africa, especially because of a need for Islamic scholars in bioethics, who have scientific training (including PhDs and MDs).

 

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Where did he reveal that?

 

And how do you know he was banned before? I couldn't find any matches with him to any other member.

 

Spider, I'll do this over PM, inshAllah. The troll's identities are 10 million strong and growing.

 

 

hah, nice. So when a 'scholar of Islam' talks about scientific matters (ex. evolution), s/he should have a scientific PhD as well, right? (Or MD, but that has less obvious relevance to evolution).

 

S..., mine sister, I disagree with the parallel you're drawing.

 

This is because I don't think the skill set necessary to understand science requires a PhD. But the hadith sciences require a great deal more knowledge, especially in understanding their context. I wish to give an example: the most basic of the prerequisite knowledge for the hadith is a firm understanding of classical Arabic. Whereas, in science, language isn't nearly as much of a barrier.

 

Perhaps more importantly, all walks of life and studies, including science, have an Islamic component. But science delimits itself to only science. An Islamic scholar can thus have purview over things in science, while a scientist doesn't have the same authority in the deen.

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Noted, robert683105! After some minor prodding, I think you are now exposed, alhamduliAllah.

 

Mr. Incredible, MM's very own troll, has returned.

I 100% agree.

 

PS> In fact I was just about to announce this, but saw GR had him identified already.

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Hi

Even though I did not insult Prophet Muhammad or Islam or any person, I am sorry my honest questions are upsetting people. In such an environment, genuine free and open discussion and dialogue is not possible. You do not have ban me. I am making a polite exit from here. I would not bother you any more.

 

I am basically a student of science and trained to be critical thinker. I honestly believe that the evolution is a credible theory.

 

Anyone can blindfold themselves to make the world dark.

 

Result is explained by your own Muslim history until 13th century and your current state of affairs. Please study it. Be objective. My reading tell me with the arrival of your religion of Islam the life of 5th century Arabs and others into one of the most advanced civilization in less than two hundred years. George Sarton, previously the professor of History of Science at Harvard University, most elegantly describes this miracle of transformation:

 

“Briefest enumeration of the Arabic contributions to knowledge would be too long to be inserted here…

The creation of a new civilization of international and encyclopaedic magnitude within less than two centuries

is something that we describe, but cannot explain…Indeed the superiority of Muslim culture, say in the

eleventh century, was so great that we can understand their intellectual pride. It is easy to imagine their

doctors speaking of western barbarians almost in the same spirit as ours do of the ‘Orientals.’ If there had

been some ferocious eugenists among the Moslems they might have suggested some means breeding out

all the western Christians and Greeks because of their hopeless backwardness. At that time Muslim pride

would have been more conceivable because they almost reached their climax, and pride is never as great

as when the fall is near. On the contrary only a few Christians were then aware of their inferiority; that

awareness did not come upon them until much later—by the middle of thirteenth century.”

[Ref: George Sarton: “The History of Science and The New Humanism.” Page 87-90].

 

The story of Muslims, that Professor Sarton described, happened when free speech and tolerance of difference of opinion were part of true Islamic community values and spirit. It is at a time, in fact over few centuries before Roger bacon (My people (The west) claims Bacon as the father of scientific method), al-Biruni wrote in Vestiges of the Past (Athar-ul-Baqiya):

 

“We must clear our minds . . . from all causes that blind people to the

truth--old custom, party, spirit, personal rivalry or passion, the desire

for influence.”

 

It was the time when Muslims and the religion of Islam celebrated and practiced science and scientific method proudly. That was the world-picture and the truth then. I do not have to explain the world of Muslim of today.

 

May God help you Muslims. My Muslim classmate told me that your holy book says that Allah would not change the condition of the people change themselves. At the same time I thank my friend for telling me the fascinating story about your religion that led me to read about it.

 

I will not bother anyone in this group anymore. It was my mistake. Wish you all the best.

 

Only request is: please take off the blindfold. The world is exciting and changing, Non-Muslim human beings are wondering and learning from the wonderful Divine ( your Allah's) book of Universe in material medium. Don't you Muslims want to participate with them? Dr. Shanavas' describe this world of divine creation most elegantly: It is a "dynamic universe that is alive and being created in every moment in the dazzling dance between Allah’s limited creatures and His unlimited imagination.

 

Thank you for your patience so far. May Allah bless you.

Robert

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I hope to make sure folks who are unfamiliar with robert683105's past are brought to speed, especially if you're new to MM and coming upon him. This is really to debunk the 'Akira-figure' of himself that he manufactured above.

 

First, and most importantly, robert683105 long ago lost his posting privileges not because a mod revoked them, but because Hamzah himself did. By his own admission in the past, he lies frequently.

 

robert683105's lie in the past was to pretend he was Muslim, then bring forth arguments from classical texts out of context and in ways that he thinks makes Islam look absurd. These posts, as with his latest responses, were seasoned with things that he thinks will pull Muslims to his side--by praising us. But he is generally unwilling to acknowledge his assumptions (namely, that classical Islamic thought is a great deal more diverse than the texts he brings up, both in aqeedah and fiqh). Overall, he subtly tries to destroy the underpinnings of our belief and separate us from our scholars.

 

Second, robert683105 subtly, but frequently, insults the Prophet (saw). These come through the aspersions he casts on the hadith. Indirectly, his insults of the Prophet (saw) are revealed in his jabs at the keepers of the Rasul's (saw) deen, our scholars. Perhaps worst of all, he mockingly uses the Rasul (saw)'s traditions, especially when he is close to being found out or has already been found out.

 

Last, Muslims don't need non-Muslims to help us with our own beliefs. robert683105, assuming these claims are not lies, is not the only 'student of science' nor the only person 'trained to be a critical thinker' on MM. In fact, this, in no way, distinguishes him from those who respond to his twisting of scholarly opinion outside of its context. I agree that anyone can be blindfolded to make the world dark. In this case, I fear robert683105's veil is from Allah, but only Allah knows best.

 

So, robert683105, thanks but no thanks. I hope you enjoy your life away from MM, assuming that, too, is not a lie.

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^ :thumbup:

 

although GR, there was no need whatsoever to justify your suspicions regarding this troll

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