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lol like the shayookh who encouraged protest against the Syrian Government but said protesting against the royal family would be haram.

The royal family are just leaders. They are Muslims. Change can be (and has been) made infernally. Saudis live in prosperity. Why would they protest lol? Under what pretense? If you're talking about rights, such as women's, LGBT, etc., this is something that is a part of Saudi society. And the King is working to change women's rights, as I have explained multiple times before. Not to mention Saudis legal system is held entirely in the court to judges discretion, are you telling me the Royal family are the judges?

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Salams, I'm back. WOW I have missed a lot, glad to see there is a lot of interest going on! I hope to answer some of your questions in the days to come. I just finished studying and so if you all don't mind I might take awhile to process and answer all of your questions. I want to do a little review so I can provide you quality answers

Let me set this straight, I want this thread to be dedicated to asking questions for the sake of Learning. Keyword: learning. No one here wants to waste their time arguing into oblivion. It's irritating for me and everyone here, and frankly everyone would rather spend their time doing something more worthwhile.

Keep modern-day politics out of this, this is about Islam not what's happening in the world. If I want to learn about Sunni Islam I am not going to talk about controversial sunni figures and just stamp Sunni Islam on them. I'm not going to waste my time with it.

If you are not sure about something, don't make a broad claim. Please ASK ME. That's what I am here for; to provide answers straight from a shia source. With this I will try to spend time out of my day to research, talk to people about shia beliefs so you dont have to resort to getting them from non-shia people. Because unlike people in our community I am not afraid to say that I do not know everything. However, I hope that this thread will provide us all an opportunity to enlighten ourselves with knowledge previously unknown to us. Don't resort to maulana wikipedia or sheikh yahoo answers.

I will also do my best to find sources that are accepted by both schools of thought.

In the meantime, please do dua for me and all the MMers on here that have exams coming up! I gotta ace this!!!

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I don't think so, toast. I think it's a whole different tone if I say "For person X, may allah's mercy be removed upon him (still leaving it up to Allah to decide his fate, we haven't suggested anything.) and if I say May person X be punished severely and forever (More of pushing for a doomed fate). Know what I mean?

 

 

To be liable for punishment in the first place is to be cursed (I.e. The Mercy of Allah to be removed from you). Allah's Mercy is around us from breathing to sleeping to eating to living and simply saying "May Allah's Mercy be removed from you" is equivalent to being dead or punished even if you haven't suggested anything, it all points into one direction. However if you mean that you put a time/place limit on that curse it's a different story.

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Keep modern-day politics out of this, this is about Islam not what's happening in the world. If I want to learn about Sunni Islam I am not going to talk about controversial sunni figures and just stamp Sunni Islam on them. I'm not going to waste my time with it.

 

If you are not sure about something, don't make a broad claim. Please ASK ME. That's what I am here for; to provide answers straight from a shia source. With this I will try to spend time out of my day to research, talk to people about shia beliefs so you dont have to resort to getting them from non-shia people. Because unlike people in our community I am not afraid to say that I do not know everything. However, I hope that this thread will provide us all an opportunity to enlighten ourselves with knowledge previously unknown to us. Don't resort to maulana wikipedia or sheikh yahoo answers.

 

I will also do my best to find sources that are accepted by both schools of thought.

 

In the meantime, please do dua for me and all the MMers on here that have exams coming up! I gotta ace this!!!

Yeah but the religious authorities in Twelver Shi'ism, the maraji', are political figures. In Pakistan it may be a different case, but certainly in Iran and Iraq, where the two main Hawza are it is. It's impossible to separate politics from theology in this issue as modern Shi'ism is a result of the exploitation of differences between Muslims by the Persians (Safavids, Shahs, Grand Ayatollahs, w/e) to establish their own identity to further whatever political cause they have.

 

I applaud your efforts though and ameen to your dua.

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My question is a mixture of religious/political.

 

The majority of Shia I know (mostly Iraqi and Pakistani) are all staunchly pro-Assad and want to see the FSA destroyed. In the face of such open tyranny and murder in Syria, do sectarian "alliances" really dictate support for what is such obvious brutality on Assad's behalf?

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So I have my list of questions with me and there are a lot. I thought it would be better to slowly provide the info by answering each question one by one. This post will be strictly about The infallibility of the prophet, I have not covered that of the Ahlul Bayt though. In addition, since there are a lot of questions I will probably not reply ASAP to your comments about this post since I have to tackle other questions and there are other things going on.

Please feel free to let me know if you find it interesting and if I have posted something you have been looking for! The authors of the books I am reading have done the analysis for the most part so I don't find it too necessary to elaborate on their points. I'll try though.

Oh, and to prove to you that I am not "google, copy, and pasting" this info, here is a picture of one of the books I borrowed from the library. The other is an online book I downloaded:

 

3dd038cc-49f6-481b-bb90-1db7789302ff_zps

 

 

Brief Point:



"Verily Allah wishes to take away from you all impurity, O Ahl al-Bayt (people of the house), and to purify you a thorough purification.”

 

The Holy Quran: The Confederates (33): 33


This is an article 62: The inerrancy (Isma) of the prophets
“The Holy Quran tells us that God has placed the Prophets under all-encompassing supervision to ensure that the revelation is correctly conveyed unto mankind, as it is said:


[He is the] knower of the unseen, and he revealeth unto none his secret, save unto every messenger whom he

hath chosen, and then he made a guard to go before him and a guard behind him, that he may know that they

have indeed conveyed the messages of their lord. He surroundeth all their doings, and he keepeth count of all

things. (Sura Al-Jinn, LXXII:26 – 28)

 

In these verses, two types of guardians are mentioned in regard to the function of protecting the integrity of the revelation: angels who guard the prophet against every type of evil; and the almighty himself, who guards the prophet and the angels.”


Sobhani, Ayatollah Ja'far. Doctrines of Shi'i Islam: A Compendium of Imami Beliefs and Practices. London: I.B. Tauris Publishers, 2001. 71. Print.

 

Article 63:

“As for the messengers being incapable of sin, many verses of the Qur’an stress this in different ways. We allude to the following below:

 

1. The Qur’an refers to the messengers as being guided and appointed by the divine reality:
'…and we chose them and guided them unto a straight path.' (Sura al-An’am, VI:87)

 

2. It reminds us that whomsoever God guides, none can lead astray:
'And he whom God guideth, for him there can be no misleader.' (Sura al-Zumar,
XXXIX: 37)

 

3. ‘Sin’ is understood in the sense of ‘misguidance:’

'Yet he hath led astray of you a great multitude.' (Sura Ya Sin, XXXVI:62)

 

These verses taken together, show that the messengers are devoid of all kinds of error and sin. The intellectual proof of the necessity of the isma of the Messengers that was established above applies equally to the necessity of their isma prior to receiving their prophetic mission. For one who has spent his life in sin and error cannot be relied upon…Also those who denied the truth of the message would all too easily be able to point to the dark past of the messenger, vilify his name and character, and thus undermine the message.”

Sobhani, Ayatollah Ja'far. Doctrines of Shi'i Islam: A Compendium of Imami Beliefs and Practices. London: I.B. Tauris Publishers, 2001. 72. Print.

 

“Allãh has mentioned obedience to Himself alongside with the obedience to His messengers. Actually, in one verse, obedience to the messenger is made synonymous with the obedience to Allãh:

 

‘And whoever obeys the Messenger has actually obeyed Allah.’ (4:80)


 

Such assertion on part of Allãh would have been impossible if the prophets and the messengers were not ma‘¥ūm and infallible. Otherwise, we would have found ourselves in an impossible situation: a non- ma‘¥ūm prophet or messenger exhorts us to do something which is wrong—should we follow or not.”

 

Rizvi, Sayyid M. The Infallibility of the Prophets in the Quran. Tanzania: Bilal Muslim Mission of Tanzania, 2005. 15. Print.

 

“To the above verses, add those verses in which Allãh forbids you to obey certain types of people who commit sins:

 

‘So do not obey those who accuse you of lying...& do not obey any mean swearer...forbidder of good, one who steps beyond the limits, a sinner.’ (68:8-10)

 

‘And do not obey among them a sinner or an ungrateful person.’ (76:24)

 

‘And do not obey the command of the prodigals...’ (26:151)

 

When you put these verses alongside the previous verses, you will get the complete picture:

. (a) The prophets are to be obeyed unconditionally.

. ( b ) - The sinners and wrongdoers are not to be 
obeyed.

. © The only logical conclusion is that the prophets 
are not in the categories of the sinners or the wrongdoers. “

 

Rizvi, Sayyid M. The Infallibility of the Prophets in the Quran. Tanzania: Bilal Muslim Mission of Tanzania, 2005. 16. Print.

 

“A few Muslims intellectuals, swayed by the idea of humanism, relativity and pluralism, wish to present the prophets and messengers of God as fallible in order to justify the moral weaknesses found among ordinary people… Tom Harpur, a theologian, an ex-Minister of the Church, and a columnist of the religious column of the Toronto Star, wrote the article 'Not even Jesus claimed infallibility' on 2nd May 1993. Once Jesus was stripped of infallibility, I was not at all surprised to see Harpur taking the second step of publishing another article a year latter entitled as “Gospels could support speculation that Jesus might have been gay”8 … This is what happens when you take away the infallibility from the prophets and the messengers of God! Instead of looking up to them as models and guides, people —especially those in position of power— justify their own immoral behaviour and lifestyle by presenting the prophets as fallible and sinners.”

 

8 - See The Toronto Star, May 2, 1993, p. B5; May 15, 1994, p. A13.

 

Rizvi, Sayyid M. The Infallibility of the Prophets in the Quran. Tanzania: Bilal Muslim Mission of Tanzania, 2005. 17-18. Print.

 

Studying the case of Adam:

“According to the experts of Islamic jurisprudence, the orders given by Allãh are of two types:

(a) Al-amr al-mawlawi, a legislative command. Such orders must be implemented; and, if someone disobeys such a command, then he is committing a sin and is liable to be punished. For example, the command to “say the daily prayers” or “do not eat the pork” is of such nature. Neglecting the daily prayers or eating of the pork is a sin and Allãh can rightly punish the sinner.

 

( b ) Al-amr al-irshãdi, an advisory command. Such orders are of advisory nature; their purpose is to inform the people about its consequences. However, if someone disobeys such an order, then he is not committing a sin; of course, he will have to face the consequences of not following the advice. For example, the command to “say bismillãh when you slaughter the chicken” is of advisory nature. Now, if someone slaughters the chicken and neglects the saying of “bismillãh,” then has he committed a sin? No, he has not committed a sin nor is he liable for a punishment for not saying the “bismillãh” at that time. However, he will lose the right to eat that chicken; that chicken cannot be eaten by a Muslim.

Conclusion: not all commands of Allãh are of obligatory or prohibitive nature. The advice given to Adam and Hawwa was not of the legislative nature. It was not that that particular tree and its fruit themselves were forbidden. The prohibition of going near that tree and eating its fruit was al-amr al-irshãdi. And going against such an order is not a sin; at most, the doer will have to face the consequences of ignoring that advice. In case of Adam and his wife, the consequence they faced was cancellation of their tenure as guests of Allãh in the Paradise and its comforts. Remember that they were not supposed to stay in the Paradise forever; they were created for the earth, and their stay in the Paradise was meant to be temporary.

 

2. The Garden/Paradise is not the place for test and trial. It is this earth on which human beings have been destined to go through test and trial by obeying the commands of Allãh. The concept of sinning in case of human beings is connected to the worldly life.”

 

Rizvi, Sayyid M. The Infallibility of the Prophets in the Quran. Tanzania: Bilal Muslim Mission of Tanzania, 2005. 23-24. Print.

 

 

Shaytãn himself knows that he does not have the power to mislead the prophets, the messengers, and those who are graced with purity by Almighty Himself. When he was given respite by Allãh, he declared the following:

 

'So I swear by Your Might (O Lord) that I will surely mislead them all together except the devoted servants of Your’s from among them.” (38:82-3; 15:39-40) And Allãh responds to him by saying, “...As for my servants, you have no power over them except those who follow you from among the misled people...' (15:41)

 

The Satan himself knew the limitation of his influence upon the chosen servants of Allãh in this world.”

 

Rizvi, Sayyid M. The Infallibility of the Prophets in the Quran. Tanzania: Bilal Muslim Mission of Tanzania, 2005. 25. Print.

 

In regards to eating the apple being a “sin:”

“Adam was destined to come to the earth anyway. Allãh had declared even before creating Adam that “I want to place a vicegerent on the earth.” So coming of Adam to the earth is not a punishment; whether or not he ate the forbidden fruit, Adam would have come to the earth anyway. So that was not a punishment. Secondly, if coming of Adam to the earth was a “punishment” of eating the forbidden fruit, then he should have been returned to the paradise after Allãh “forgave” him. Forgiveness means “canceling the punishment”—Adam should have been taken back to the paradise. This did not happen, which proves that Adam’s coming to the earth was not a “punishment”; and eating was not a “sin”.

Rizvi, Sayyid M. The Infallibility of the Prophets in the Quran. Tanzania: Bilal Muslim Mission of Tanzania, 2005. 25-26. Print.


Edit: Updated Picture

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We believe in the infallibility of our Prophet (saw). It's anyone other than the Prophets we don't believe as infallible save for I think a few figures mentioned explicitly as infallible.

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Also, it's important to define infallibility I think. We distinguish being protected from sin from making personal mistakes (the two date trees cross-fertilising, turning away from the blind man, forgetting to say 'inshaAllah' after making an intention to do so and so).

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^ I respect you for your research skills :thumbup:

 

Thanks :) I just want to provide a sufficient amount of info so people can feel well informed.

 

 

We believe in the infallibility of our Prophet (saw). It's anyone other than the Prophets we don't believe as infallible save for I think a few figures mentioned explicitly as infallible.

 

Word. I didn't assume everyone here thought of the Prophet (PBUH) being fallible. I know some people think of him to be so, because they believe that he committed minor sins. For me it doesn't make sense for him to be flawed, because it's God's message he is spreading and I'm sure God's standard (at the very least) is to have an infallible messenger. What do you think?

 

 

Also, it's important to define infallibility I think. We distinguish being protected from sin from making personal mistakes (the two date trees cross-fertilising, turning away from the blind man, forgetting to say 'inshaAllah' after making an intention to do so and so).

 

Yeah sure, what definition can we all agree on? Now in regards to your second comment, are you talking about the prophets or the common people?

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Word. I didn't assume everyone here thought of the Prophet (PBUH) being fallible. I know some people think of him to be so, because they believe that he committed minor sins. For me it doesn't make sense for him to be flawed, because it's God's message he is spreading and I'm sure God's standard (at the very least) is to have an infallible messenger. What do you think?

 

We regard the Prophet (SAW)'s Sunnah as being flawless. If it wasn't, we would not adhere to his practices. The amazing thing about our Prophet, is that he was so human yet so flawless once he became a Prophet, it gave us Muslims an aspiration to try and reach that would only augment any good we already did.

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yet so flawless once he became a Prophet

 

So what do you think of him before he became the prophet? When you say the sunnah, are you considering him before prophethood too?

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So what do you think of him before he became the prophet? When you say the sunnah, are you considering him before prophethood too?

 

I believe prior to prophethood he (saw) was just a normal man. Any good that carried over prior to him being a prophet, was a reflection on his good character. We know that the Prophet (saw) was a good man prior to Islam, but that does not mean he was flawless in this period. Of course, as a reward for becoming a prophet, Allah (swt) wiped away any wrongs he may have committed, and through the Qu'ran he perfected himself.

 

When I say the Sunnah I consider only his actions carried over into prophethood and his actions during prophethood.

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We know that the Prophet (saw) was a good man prior to Islam, but that does not mean he was flawless in this period. Of course, as a reward for becoming a prophet, Allah (swt) wiped away any wrongs he may have committed, and through the Qu'ran he perfected himself.

 

When I say the Sunnah I consider only his actions carried over into prophethood and his actions during prophethood.

 

I differ from this view, as I believe the prophet was infallible even before his prophethood; as you can see with the info I posted above. But cool was just wondering, thanks for sharing man.

 

People, feel free to comment. I'll reply when I have the time. Unless any of you want to further discuss infallbility, I will probably work on the concept of self-flagellation. Of course we can also vote on what we should discuss next.

 

Thoughts?

 

Edit: further comment on the first sentence.

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