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Illustration of why socialism doesn't work

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As usual, when we discuss economics you result to a veiled condescending tone and refer to your high school buddies.

 

As baldy said, economics is an important issue, and by discussing my views with MM members, I am furthering my understanding. I could read all the academic journals I like, yet nothing will be more relatable than the discussion I can achieve on MM. This thread only exists for that purpose. I am also aware that many Muslims have an outright hate for capitalism, which in my opinion is relatable to a long standing Muslim dislike for America. Thus naturally, with capitalism being viewed as an American value, many Muslims in turn have a negative attitude towards it.

 

My argument for a free market is due to the hadith where Allah is described as the price setter, and that the Prophet (SAW) himself refused to meddle with the prices in the marketplace. And as I explained to you, New Zealand only increased intervention etc. during the previous government, which was a Labour government advocating Third Way. Prior to that, the New Zealand government were neoliberals and conservatives for most of it's history since WW2. And as to Scandinavian countries, they are simply free markets with welfare aimed specifically at providing skills for the workforce (i.e. education).

 

Obama however, wishes to impose greater taxes on those who earn more. This is something that simply isn't fair (imho opinion though, most American politicians suck as they are into the whole 'big government' thing, and Obama is certainly from the nicer of the bunch).

 

 

 

 

 

 

What I know from an Islamic perspective, is that zakat is given at a persons discretion (i.e. private charity), that markets are free and that class exists the way it does as a test from Allah to test what we do with what he has given us. I think that the study of new institutional economics is fundamental in relating the academics of economics to the real world, in that it gives analysis of social norms and ideological values.

 

 

But aside from the institutional differences brother, are there truly any (significant) differences between Islamic economics and capitalism?

 

'Capitalism' is a dangerously misused term. What type of capitalism are we discussing? State sponsored, Mercantilism, Free-Market, Corporate/crony, Social market? Are we discussing it from an ideological perspective or purely economics. We have to really answer these questions first.

 

But, if we're discussing economics, then apart from the fundamental basis of Islamic economics, i.e that: It must be based on bimetallic standard, and all wealth in origin belongs to Allah, that sources of energy, pastures and water belong to citizens and not the state or a private owner, that there is no interest and a few key differences within how we gather and distribute tax. There isn't much that we differ on.

 

Bro, do you have a source for that opinion on Zakah? I've always read that zakah was collected by and distributed by the state and that it was a duty on each Muslim citizen to pay it, if he or she reaches the wealth threshold.

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'Capitalism' is a dangerously misused term. What type of capitalism are we discussing? State sponsored, Mercantilism, Free-Market, Corporate/crony, Social market? Are we discussing it from an ideological perspective or purely economics. We have to really answer these questions first.

 

But, if we're discussing economics, then apart from the fundamental basis of Islamic economics, i.e that: It must be based on bimetallic standard, and all wealth in origin belongs to Allah, that sources of energy, pastures and water belong to citizens and not the state or a private owner, that there is no interest and a few key differences within how we gather and distribute tax. There isn't much that we differ on.

 

Bro, do you have a source for that opinion on Zakah? I've always read that zakah was collected by and distributed by the state and that it was a duty on each Muslim citizen to pay it, if he or she reaches the wealth threshold.

Free market, and strictly economics.

 

Zakat is viewed as an individual responsibility, like fasting and praying. The people under the first 3 caliphs paid the caliphate voluntarily, and as a response a regulatory collection of zakat was formed to reduce the number of folks who lied about their circumstances receiving zakat.

 

During Ali (RA) and all his successors caliphates up to but excluding Umar II, many Muslims refused to recognise the caliphs as legitimate receivers and distributors of zakat and thus refused to pay it. After Umar II, personal zakat ceased to be collected by the caliphs in a centralised manner.

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Zakat is viewed as an individual responsibility, like fasting and praying. The people under the first 3 caliphs paid the caliphate voluntarily,

do you know why the "apostasy war" during the time of first caliph happened?

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do you know why the "apostasy war" during the time of first caliph happened?

People begun accepting false prophets, rejecting Islam on the basis the prophet had died, refusing to accept Abu Bakr (RA) as the successor to Muhammed (PBUH) and trying to take control of the leadership of Islam.

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Indonesia has plenty of jobs bro. I also see no pictures of men forcing them to work, etc. The average wage in Indonesia is $12 a day anyhow. For unskilled labour $5 is to be expected when the national income is that level.

 

 

You keep saying 'forced' to work. Nobody is 'forced' to work. There are other jobs, people just have to look. Do you think these men began working as miners when they got families? Or do you think they got families whilst they were working as miners? It is more than likely the latter, and I believe that also a large number of them are bachelors, either working for themselves or to help perhaps their parents.

 

Honestly speaking sister, do you believe that someone who is entirely unskilled will receive the same wage as someone who is skilled?

 

 

 

 

The main reason minimum wage screws people over, is that it forces employers to drop unskilled workers (in particular young people) from the work force and to employ more higher skilled labour. At the end of the day, the wage contract is an agreement between the worker and their employer, and in my opinion a worker should be allowed to work for as little or as much as they want to.

 

 

I did not say they were to stupid. I was referring to the idea of economies of scale. The facilities necessary to refine ore, the capital necessary to pay miners, the cost of leasing/buying a mine itself, etc., cannot be achieved by a single miner. If the miner had that much wealth he would probably not be a miner now would he?

 

 

And you just proved my point there sister. Because they are unskilled labour they are paid that much. The average wage in South Africa is $10,960, if they are earning $6,500 a year, it makes perfect sense. And actually sister that last analogy does work out. My fathers parents were both illiterate, the generation before them had all their wealth taken by the socialists so they inherited nothing, the socialist irrigation reforms destroyed the one thing they had which was our family farm. They had nothing. My grandfather though, worked 3 jobs, my grandmother would make small accessories and baskets to be sold in the marketplace, my uncles all worked part time jobs as bricklayers or errand boys from the age of around 9, they also helped on the farm since they were 7 and continued to do so all whilst they were at school. Yet, alhamdulilah, my dad and my uncle both have PhDs and are paid well, my other uncles are independent men (one has 17 children and 2 wives and can provide for all of them), my aunts are both married and have children and one lives in Saudi whilst the other lives a reasonable life in Iraq.

 

I have met countless people, who started from doing menial things such as having their wives cook falafel for them to sell at the mosque so they could pay off their university debts to owning large holdings companies in the middle-east.

 

People are not trapped.

 

We definitely do not have the same understanding of 'forced' here. Did you read my other post? I mentioned structural violence. Go and look it up. You don't have to be physically forced to do something but conditions which exist in a society, created by gov and the likes, force people into certain things. Do you know anything about the mining industry in South Africa or about the people who work in those mines? Do you have any idea about the social conditions that these people are affected with? Have you even heard about apartheid? Have you heard about HIV/AIDS? These miners fall into both camps, those who already have families and those who are 'bachelors' but do have families they have to support. And blud, they ain't supporting just mom and dad. They're supporting mom and dad, their own kids, their siblings and their siblings kids. If there are any working for themselves there is a tiny, lucky, portion of them doing so.

 

No, I don't think that someone who is entirely unskilled should be receiving the same wage as a skilled worker. I was intensely upset when they asked for 10K a month last year because I thought, well hell, I would get that as a starting salary having completed a post graduate programme so why should they get the same pay as I should. But on the other hand, I know the kinds of conditions these guys work in. I know the hours they work. And none of that is trivial. They are risking their lives every day and there are a lot of people that rely on their income.

 

You are actually saying that they're stupid and you're saying that they are content with their situations. 'want' How can you want to get paid R5 an hour? (that is an extreme example). If you've applied to a range of places and the only one that takes you offers a meagre salary, its a case of better than nothing, not 'want'. The worker, unless he is skilled, does not go in and negotiate his salary. Not in my experience.

 

And no a single miner cannot do all that. But you underestimate the power of the group. I was talking at a simple level to give an example. On the one hand you're saying that they choose this life but on the other you're completely writing them off as useless. I don't think they would work like a proper business would but I think they would find a way to mine and get their material out there to other companies. These blokes build houses out of scrap. Houses that last longer than the ones that are built for them and some of our own houses. There are already enough people working illegally on closed mines and mining them and getting product out from there.

 

Oh my days. Where did you get that from? Are you talking about a month? We don't use dollars here, brother. The average wage in SA is not R10K. That is for tertiary educated folk. Its much less for people who have secondary education, which is the majority of this country, and it falls below half of that. We wish it was $10K. I'd be singing from the roof tops.

 

The last analogy works out only for a few. Khair alhamdulillah that your family found its way out of their situation but you cannot liken your situation to everybody else or to the majority. Yours is the exception to the rule. There are families who will make it out due to the grace of God alone providing them with a lucky break somewhere along the lines. I can meet your story with my own. My grandfather had a lower education than my grandmother did. He didn't even go to high school. He left his home on the farm when he was 12 and worked his days away. He never got his inheritance from his family either. He did not have an education and he did not have any skill other than this love for fishing and boxing and what he learnt off the streets. He made his way in this world and alhamdulillah he never had to work for anyone throughout his adult life. He was able to create opportunities for himself by opening stores wherever he went and he made money out of his fishing and he was able to support his family on that. He bought a house in a snobbish area where there were only professionals living and he paid cash whilst those other folk were paying bonds. He bought cars for himself and his son cash and he continued to do so for his grandkids. He took my mother in after her divorce and provided for us. He never owed anyone a cent in his life. Alhamdulillah that the circumstances he found himself in allowed him to be able to do those things. But does that mean that everyone from the farm is able to do that? No. You have to be really naive to think that.

 

I can also turn around and say that every student at university should be able to fund themselves even if their parents aren't paying for them. I found a job as soon as I left school and I worked like a dog for the minimum wage that I was getting only to get screwed over after 6 months and get told that we were not going to get over time anymore. After 3 years I didn't even get a raise no matter how much I begged and pleaded. That was just how the company worked and there were well within their legal rights to do so. I couldn't tell them to stuff it because I couldn't get a job anywhere else. So I had to suck it up and work there so that I could pay my fees. I can tell every university student who comes to me and pleads poverty that they should go out and find a job but the reality is that there are not 10 000 entry level part-time positions open. Not in this economy. I had to work 3 jobs at one point to put myself through school and help my family but I'm not gonna go and preach that to others. Each person has their own circumstances. Alhamdulillah some have it better than others and we are able to improve our situation but there are many who cannot. Its not that they don't want to. You need to get that out of your head. Some people are given the opportunity, however it presents itself but not all are. And you are naive to think that everyone can pull themselves out of their situation. If that were the case the only people sitting at the bottom would be the really lazy ones who choose it. Unless you are insinuating that they're all lazy and like their life situation.

 

How are you willing to learn when you are pushing this same agenda of yours and not taking in a word that others are saying. I'm not trying to change your mind. I'm trying to make you see the wider point. I'm trying to show you a world beyond that textbook of yours. Reality is far from what they teach you on a black board. Do yourself a favour and go and work with under privileged kids. Work in under privileged communities and see the reality for what it is.

 

I actually think that the discussion of economics away from the academic realm is very important. I say that as someone whose work revolves around analysing economies and economic trends, and I only mention that so you understand my background.

 

The reason I say its important is because, like it or not economics is now a very heated battlefield and the more we understand it the more conducive it is to finding a solution.

 

To make my position clear, I am not a proponent of either socialism, libertarianism or capitalism. I am very firmly in the Islamic economics camp.

Can you elaborate on that please?

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Also, you're accusing others of being condescending toward you but you're being condescending yourself.

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People begun accepting false prophets, rejecting Islam on the basis the prophet had died, refusing to accept Abu Bakr (RA) as the successor to Muhammed (PBUH) and trying to take control of the leadership of Islam.

 

While there were certainly other factors, the underlying reason was the zakat. They became murtad by virtue of refusing to pay the zakah. The people who accepted false prophets were mainly mushrik to begin with. This evidence is very clear:

 

It is narrated on the authority of Abu Huraira that when the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) breathed his last and Abu Bakr was appointed as his successor (Caliph), those amongst the Arabs who wanted to become apostates became apostates. 'Umar b. Khattab said to Abu Bakr: Why would you fight against the people, when the Messenger of Allah declared: I have been directed to fight against people so long as they do not say: There is no god but Allah, and he who professed it was granted full protection of his property and life on my behalf except for a right? His (other) affairs rest with Allah. Upon this Abu Bakr said: By Allah, I would definitely fight against him who severed prayer from Zakat, for it is the obligation upon the rich. By Allah, I would fight against them even to secure the cord (used for hobbling the feet of a camel) which they used to give to the Messenger of Allah (as zakat) but now they have withheld it. Umar b. Khattab remarked: By Allah, I found nothing but the fact that Allah had opened the heart of Abu Bakr for (perceiving the justification of) fighting (against those who refused to pay Zakat) and I fully recognized that the (stand of Abu Bakr) was right. (Sahih Muslim, Kitab al imam)

 

As well as this there was an incident were some individual took it upon himself to collect zakat in a particular and abu bakr admonished him for doing so, and said it was his (Abu Bakrs) right exclusively to collect the zakat.

 

Asie from that, the zakat functions as a tax. It is supposed to be deposited into the bayt al mal and distributed or used by the state on the categories defined by the shariah. The responsibility for distributing the zakat falls directly on the head of the state, so it wouldn't make sense to place a policy to govern this other than the state collecting it.

 

I think the confusion lies in the fact that giving the zakat is an individual obligation on each able muslim, however the means of distribution are on a state level. As an example salah is a personal obligation, however Allah swt has given us the hudood which states that the one who misses his or her prayers must be punished accordingly.

 

 

Can you elaborate on that please?

I would love to. Its a very big topic and perhaps a new thread is required in order to discuss it properly?

However Islam comprehensively deals with all issues of the economy and has a number of basic principles which govern the way we view economics. These being that all wealth in origin belongs to Allah swt, the economy must be based on a bimetallic standard, and zakat is obligatory for every capable muslim.

 

I very strongly believe that islamic economics has the solutions for our current recession, and is able to destroy global poverty.

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We definitely do not have the same understanding of 'forced' here. Did you read my other post? I mentioned structural violence. Go and look it up. You don't have to be physically forced to do something but conditions which exist in a society, created by gov and the likes, force people into certain things. Do you know anything about the mining industry in South Africa or about the people who work in those mines? Do you have any idea about the social conditions that these people are affected with? Have you even heard about apartheid? Have you heard about HIV/AIDS? These miners fall into both camps, those who already have families and those who are 'bachelors' but do have families they have to support. And blud, they ain't supporting just mom and dad. They're supporting mom and dad, their own kids, their siblings and their siblings kids. If there are any working for themselves there is a tiny, lucky, portion of them doing so.

 

I am quite aware of all the things you have mentioned. I would also like to point out, that the economist William H. Hutt (who was an extremely vocal opponent of South African Apartheid), has stated that in fact Afrikaner nationalists used trade unions and other such socialist devices to push their agendas. Furthermore, the ANC government that took control of South Africa since the end of apartheid is in fact a socialist government and forms apart of a leftist alliance.

 

I am also aware of HIV/AIDS being a great issue in Africa, yet you cannot blame people not being payed, in what is your opinion, not enough, as the cause of this widespread pandemic in South Africa. And as I said before regarding the profits accumulated by the mining industry, even if you divided it amongst all the miners equally there would only be a marginal increase (and an unsustainable one at that). The fact of the matter is, due to the necessity of what is known as a supply chain in business, portions of profit are distributed up and down the supply chain according to the necessity of each levels role to operate the business.

 

No, I don't think that someone who is entirely unskilled should be receiving the same wage as a skilled worker. I was intensely upset when they asked for 10K a month last year because I thought, well hell, I would get that as a starting salary having completed a post graduate programme so why should they get the same pay as I should. But on the other hand, I know the kinds of conditions these guys work in. I know the hours they work. And none of that is trivial. They are risking their lives every day and there are a lot of people that rely on their income.

 

They may be risking their lives everyday, but that is work that they have chosen to actively participate in. There is the option of migration, there is the option of entrepreneurship, there are other jobs in the job market such as farming and fishing that generally can be done with only basic training required.

 

And no a single miner cannot do all that. But you underestimate the power of the group. I was talking at a simple level to give an example. On the one hand you're saying that they choose this life but on the other you're completely writing them off as useless. I don't think they would work like a proper business would but I think they would find a way to mine and get their material out there to other companies. These blokes build houses out of scrap. Houses that last longer than the ones that are built for them and some of our own houses. There are already enough people working illegally on closed mines and mining them and getting product out from there.

 

The power of the group? What gives you the impression that the miners in any case would feel that they must act benevolently to each other and not in their own self interest? In what world does a business have 100 administrators? I did not write them off as useless, I simply said they lack the capability to run the business due to the requirements. Are the miners capable of refining ores or building the machines necessary? Are they capable of purchasing these machines? On top of that can they afford to buy the mine/lease it? The answer is no. I would also like to add, the CEOs and businessmen who run the mining corporations probably could not afford to either. The largest mining operations in South Africa, as I suspected, are run by publicly owned companies. This means they are owned by a diverse range of investors who could range from pensioners with savings accounts to multi-billionaire hedge fund managers. The people who receive the large end of the profits are these people who own shares of the company, which either rewards them in dividends or an increase in share price.

 

You mention the illegal mining, but really how efficient are these operations? Can they satisfy the needs of the mining industry in all its sectors (hypothetically)? Probably not. I would also like to add, it is an unfortunate reality that due to the existence of economies of scale and the need for large amounts of capital to run such industries, they are not free markets. Perhaps in the future, and inshallah it occurs, technology and the capacity to buy and sell mines will allow individuals to partake in the extraction and processing of these goods. But at the moment, it is simply not possible.

 

Oh my days. Where did you get that from? Are you talking about a month? We don't use dollars here, brother. The average wage in SA is not R10K. That is for tertiary educated folk. Its much less for people who have secondary education, which is the majority of this country, and it falls below half of that. We wish it was $10K. I'd be singing from the roof tops.

 

That statistic comes from the World Bank, the IMF and the CIA World Factbook. I am talking about yearly, in international dollars, the average wage earned in South Africa is $10,960 (approximately 11,000).

 

The last analogy works out only for a few. Khair alhamdulillah that your family found its way out of their situation but you cannot liken your situation to everybody else or to the majority. Yours is the exception to the rule. There are families who will make it out due to the grace of God alone providing them with a lucky break somewhere along the lines. I can meet your story with my own. My grandfather had a lower education than my grandmother did. He didn't even go to high school. He left his home on the farm when he was 12 and worked his days away. He never got his inheritance from his family either. He did not have an education and he did not have any skill other than this love for fishing and boxing and what he learnt off the streets. He made his way in this world and alhamdulillah he never had to work for anyone throughout his adult life. He was able to create opportunities for himself by opening stores wherever he went and he made money out of his fishing and he was able to support his family on that. He bought a house in a snobbish area where there were only professionals living and he paid cash whilst those other folk were paying bonds. He bought cars for himself and his son cash and he continued to do so for his grandkids. He took my mother in after her divorce and provided for us. He never owed anyone a cent in his life. Alhamdulillah that the circumstances he found himself in allowed him to be able to do those things. But does that mean that everyone from the farm is able to do that? No. You have to be really naive to think that.

 

Mashallah, your grandfather sounds like an inspirational man.

Not in a day, or a week, or a month, or a year no. Perhaps not in a decade even. But I truly believe that every individual, should they have faith and work as hard as they can, can achieve whatever Allah has granted them the capacity to.

 

I can also turn around and say that every student at university should be able to fund themselves even if their parents aren't paying for them. I found a job as soon as I left school and I worked like a dog for the minimum wage that I was getting only to get screwed over after 6 months and get told that we were not going to get over time anymore. After 3 years I didn't even get a raise no matter how much I begged and pleaded. That was just how the company worked and there were well within their legal rights to do so. I couldn't tell them to stuff it because I couldn't get a job anywhere else. So I had to suck it up and work there so that I could pay my fees. I can tell every university student who comes to me and pleads poverty that they should go out and find a job but the reality is that there are not 10 000 entry level part-time positions open. Not in this economy. I had to work 3 jobs at one point to put myself through school and help my family but I'm not gonna go and preach that to others. Each person has their own circumstances. Alhamdulillah some have it better than others and we are able to improve our situation but there are many who cannot. Its not that they don't want to. You need to get that out of your head. Some people are given the opportunity, however it presents itself but not all are. And you are naive to think that everyone can pull themselves out of their situation. If that were the case the only people sitting at the bottom would be the really lazy ones who choose it. Unless you are insinuating that they're all lazy and like their life situation.

 

Of course there are not. The minimum wage has practically ensured that. But that does not mean people cannot start there own enterprise. It does not mean people can look within their own communities for work. I never said they did not want to, I simply stated that they should try alternatives, or realise their own potential. I never implied in any form whatsoever that only lazy people have the lowest incomes, I simply asserted that in order for somebody to be successful they must work hard, and that it is unjust in every sense of the word for any individual to feel self-entitled to the rewards another individuals achievement.

 

How are you willing to learn when you are pushing this same agenda of yours and not taking in a word that others are saying. I'm not trying to change your mind. I'm trying to make you see the wider point. I'm trying to show you a world beyond that textbook of yours. Reality is far from what they teach you on a black board. Do yourself a favour and go and work with under privileged kids. Work in under privileged communities and see the reality for what it is.

 

Your arguments and anecdotes have, believe it or not, helped me understand more about South Africa. Thanks to you I have done some more reading on South Africa. The understandings I have accumulated about the world have mostly come from other peoples explanations, my readings of history and current affairs and my enthusiasm to debate and discuss ideas with people such as yourself. And perhaps, one summer I might volunteer in my fathers hometown to get that experience, but for now I do not have the time nor am I bereft of other obligations.

 

Also, you're accusing others of being condescending toward you but you're being condescending yourself.

 

Where have I been condescending in any of my posts sister? I apologise if I have, but as far as I know I have not.

 

 

 

While there were certainly other factors, the underlying reason was the zakat. They became murtad by virtue of refusing to pay the zakah. The people who accepted false prophets were mainly mushrik to begin with. This evidence is very clear:

 

It is narrated on the authority of Abu Huraira that when the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) breathed his last and Abu Bakr was appointed as his successor (Caliph), those amongst the Arabs who wanted to become apostates became apostates. 'Umar b. Khattab said to Abu Bakr: Why would you fight against the people, when the Messenger of Allah declared: I have been directed to fight against people so long as they do not say: There is no god but Allah, and he who professed it was granted full protection of his property and life on my behalf except for a right? His (other) affairs rest with Allah. Upon this Abu Bakr said: By Allah, I would definitely fight against him who severed prayer from Zakat, for it is the obligation upon the rich. By Allah, I would fight against them even to secure the cord (used for hobbling the feet of a camel) which they used to give to the Messenger of Allah (as zakat) but now they have withheld it. Umar b. Khattab remarked: By Allah, I found nothing but the fact that Allah had opened the heart of Abu Bakr for (perceiving the justification of) fighting (against those who refused to pay Zakat) and I fully recognized that the (stand of Abu Bakr) was right. (Sahih Muslim, Kitab al imam)

 

As well as this there was an incident were some individual took it upon himself to collect zakat in a particular and abu bakr admonished him for doing so, and said it was his (Abu Bakrs) right exclusively to collect the zakat.

 

Asie from that, the zakat functions as a tax. It is supposed to be deposited into the bayt al mal and distributed or used by the state on the categories defined by the shariah. The responsibility for distributing the zakat falls directly on the head of the state, so it wouldn't make sense to place a policy to govern this other than the state collecting it.

 

I think the confusion lies in the fact that giving the zakat is an individual obligation on each able muslim, however the means of distribution are on a state level. As an example salah is a personal obligation, however Allah swt has given us the hudood which states that the one who misses his or her prayers must be punished accordingly.

 

Thank you for that athar of Abu Bakr (RA). But as I know today, Islamic countries (Saudi Arabia, Malaysia, etc.) have different methods of collecting and distributing zakat (for example, I read in an academic journal that Malaysia has a dual system, in which there are both centralised and decentralised methods of collecting and distributing zakat), so I think there is an ikhtilaf on this issue. I think that ideally, given a Muslim ruler is just and ensures that the zakat is distributed properly through the mechanism of Bayt ul-Mal, then a centralised system would be best. Otherwise, I think that private charity on an individual level would be more efficient (paying a random brother at the mosques debts, etc.).

 

Perhaps if zakat was distributed by several private institutions (i.e. one for each asnaf, or better yet several for each asnaf even) yet regulated by the ruler to ensure transparency than an optimal result would be achieved. I think such a situation would ensure that in fact the ruler is ensuring the distribution of zakat whilst having the effectiveness and efficiency of private institutions.

 

If you begun that thread on Islamic economics it would be great, I'd find Hadith and Ayat that I know of relevant to economics.

 

edit: typo

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To all those who want large taxes on the wealthy:

That was the golden age of american capitalism, when the american economy was booming in 50-70s. When the tax on the rich was more than 70%.

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That was the golden age of american capitalism, when the american economy was booming in 50-70s. When the tax on the rich was more than 70%.

 

This video was recorded during the 80s, when Wall Street was doing incredibly well for itself and stockbrokers were making millions.

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This video was recorded during the 80s, when Wall Street was doing incredibly well for itself and stockbrokers were making millions.

yep after Ragenomics, the wealth on the top 1-2% was okay, but as a nation capitalism started going down hill. And today American health system, education are among the bottom in the developed countries. Not even mentioning the inequality. And the vocal purpose of tax cuts was to make the benefits trickle down. The very opposite have happened since.

 

Also, you do realize american capitalism is a real free market capitalism, right?

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yep after Ragenomics, the wealth on the top 1-2% was okay, but as a nation capitalism started going down hill. And today American health system, education are among the bottom in the developed countries. Not even mentioning the inequality. And the vocal purpose of tax cuts was to make the benefits trickle down. The very opposite have happened since.

 

Also, you do realize american capitalism is a real free market capitalism, right?

 

Americas government ever since the end of the Reagan administration has been taking a larger and larger role in the economy. This is exactly against the ideas of the free market. Who regulate the health and education systems in the US? The government, hence why, due to it's intervention in these to parts of the economy, they are performing poorly.

 

Taxes post-Reagan have increased for the most part. And inequality in income is fine, as Milton Friedman states in the video, the folks who earn large amounts of wealth, once they have satisfied their wants, re-invest it into the economy directly, creating jobs and so on and so forth.

 

America is quite far from a free market, but closer towards it than the USSR was.

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