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1. What do you mean by the first paragraph- not sure I understand.

2. Most women do not take off 6 months per child. They take off about 10-12 weeks. And in the US, unlike in the UK, it is often not paid leave.

3. I think you need to be careful about using 'smooth' ways to justify sexism. There's no reason why, consistently and quantifiably, women are being paid less for doing the same jobs as men. The fact that they might, hypothetically, eventually have a child does not in the least bit justify why they should be paid less.

4. Statistically, women are actually higher achievers than men, in terms of grades in school, days they take off from work, productivity, and so on. And anecdotally, they're incredibly more pleasant to work with.

 

1. As in gender inequality can't be argued for on the same basis as racial inequality or religious (in some cases) or class inequality for the simple reason it is not an inherited trait that goes from generation to generation, like being from a minority is. Someone can't say "As a female growing up I didn't have the advantages a male household had" because in most cases women also have fathers and are exposed to the benefits their fathers are exposed to, where as in the case of racial inequality it is focused on an inherited trait. I was pointing out how compared to other forms of discrimination the struggles of a woman die and end with her, there is no actual successor to her struggle, and it should be treated as a special case.

 

2. Many however do stop work entirely once they have a child, and return at a later date. At the part regarding paid leave, that is irrelevant as obviously that will vary from place to place (and firm to firm).

 

3. Someone who had time of work due to having a child and other such responsibilities will have less work experience, will actually be behind on work and not up to date with things relative to their workplace and thus less productive, if it is a job where they can be just as productive regardless that is different. But in the case they are less productive and are not up to date with current work practice means they shouldn't be paid the same as someone else. The same goes for a man who takes off time for his children or for illness.

 

4. I never disputed women could be more productive then men, nor that they were higher achievers.

 

 

@ bold, no they do not match up. Even when controlled for every single factor, men still make more money than women do, performing the exact same work.

 

Also, in the U.S. there is no mandatory maternity leave, and women often go back to work within six weeks. In Canada we're luckier, we get six months of mat leave. The situation is much worse in America, the work culture and lack of benefits make it much harder to have children.

 

The studies on this vary. See: http://thenonpolitician.homestead.com/Economics/GenderPayGap.html

 

Sowell also did a study in 1982 that said in fact in many industries with factors controlled women earn more than men.

 

I will not deny there is some discrimination, but this discrimination would no doubt also extend to men in certain industries.

 

It doesn't economically make sense for two people doing the same job with the exact same qualifications to have different pay scales. Not to mention the Equal Pay Act of 1963 in the USA means any woman who feels she is being payed less for doing the same work with the same qualifications can sue her employer, unless the employer can prove reasons for pay discrepancy other than gender, in which it isn't gender discrimination.

But regardless of this it can't be forgotten that in other places in the world where gender discrimination is not prohibited peoples biases are by law allowed to play out, so yeah there are many places where there is a pay gap based just on sexism.

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So in general, its about you as an individual. Feminism is good, so long as it doesn't downplay or underestimate the problems that individual men also suffer from. I think it also has to be culturally-sensitive and recognize that feminism should look different for some than for others. Traditional womanly roles, for instance, can also be used as forms of empowerment. As collectives though, I think it's safe to assume women tend to have it rougher, and feminism has a necessary role and purpose. That cannot delegitimize the experiences of individuals, though -- but unfortunately too often does.

 

 

 

:yes:

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Equal rights are good. There are biological differences obviously, but I don't believe most of the psychological stuff about people being more suited to certain masculine vs. feminine things. At least, there are enough exceptions to the 'rule' that it doesn't make sense to make legislation around antiquated ideas of gender roles.

Agree with exceptions to the rule, though there is strong evidence that suggests that there are real psychological differences between genders(generally) which are rooted in the neurological architecture of the mind, and that psychological differences are not mere social constructs. These differences have been observed even in children that are less than a week old (female children tend to look at people more, and male children tend to look at inanimate objects more). It is important to point out an individual should not be assumed to fit his gender 'type'. And most of us have brains that are somewhere in between a 'true' male or 'true' female brain (the former, it is suggested by a Cambridge professor who has dedicated many of his years to this research (Simon Baron Cohen), is the cause of autism). I would recommend, 'The Essential Difference: Men, Women and the Extreme Male Brain', if you are into this kind of stuff.

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Sowell also did a study in 1982 that said in fact in many industries with factors controlled women earn more than men.

 

I will not deny there is some discrimination, but this discrimination would no doubt also extend to men in certain industries.

 

 

I just helped with a statistical analysis of women's pay in the non-profit sector. Without being too specific, we factored for things like how long the business had been running, how long they had been CEO & President (or whatever their title was), and so on. Women were making about 20% less, even after those things were factored in. That's a pretty significant difference--could be talking about 100,000 dollar difference when you take into account how much some of them are making. And these are OBVIOUSLY business-oriented women with incredible amounts of experience.

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I just helped with a statistical analysis of women's pay in the non-profit sector. Without being too specific, we factored for things like how long the business had been running, how long they had been CEO & President (or whatever their title was), and so on. Women were making about 20% less, even after those things were factored in. That's a pretty significant difference--could be talking about 100,000 dollar difference when you take into account how much some of them are making. And these are OBVIOUSLY business-oriented women with incredible amounts of experience.

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Loving the responses. I think feminism is very gynocentric (hence the term) and does ignore male issues. If you've been around as many feminists as I have, it's the truth. But I find sex/gender to be extremely interesting. I have been studying it for years.

Also toplel on shave mychest hairs response.

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