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Hell, Mercy, and Time Preference

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There are certain interpretations which are very clear and you can be 100% sure that they are correct. So it's not a matter of "thinking outside the box."

 

Yes; that's the understanding of Orthodoxy.

 

I'm not saying you have to accept the interpretation.

 

But to treat it dismissively as nonsense and to think that this very textual interpretations that reigns today has always been mainstream and accepted is simply historically ignorant.

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But to treat it dismissively as nonsense and to think that this very textual interpretations that reigns today has always been mainstream and accepted is simply historically ignorant.

 

That's what I did, and I gave my reasons. I don't think you can refute them, either.

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That's what I did, and I gave my reasons. I don't think you can refute them, either.

 

What would it take to refute it? Showing you that it's not some wacky online thing and that Iblis has been depicted in many ways by well-respected Muslims throughout history? I can do that if you'd like...

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Simply provide a reasoning that Iblis "loved" Allah (instead of merely saying so-and-so scholar believed this).

 

Some people believe that the earth is flat. But so what?

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Simply provide a reasoning that Iblis "loved" Allah (instead of merely saying so-and-so scholar believed this).

 

Some people believe that the earth is flat. But so what?

It has to do with a particular Quran interpretation. Based on the discussions we've had, you dont seem to believe much in the hidden meanings of the Qur'an.

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It has to do with a particular Quran interpretation.

 

What is that interpretation exactly? *

 

* You already posted it before, but I'm asking again just to see if you're willing to clarify a little more.

 

Based on the discussions we've had, you dont seem to believe much in the hidden meanings of the Qur'an.

 

That's not true; even the whole OP in this thread contradicts that. But nice try.

 

Maybe you also forgot the kind of things I discussed in my older threads regarding the Quran (like the ones below):

 

- The Disjointed Letters

- Interconnectedness Between the Self, Memory, and God-Consciousness

- The Quran and the Self-Reference Effect

- "He frowned and turned away"

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Yeah NICE TRY Moose, you really tried it with your dishonest and shady tactics and you almost got away with it- BUT NOT HERE. Nu-uh. Now scour through all those threads in confirmation of your wronging wrongness.

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What is that interpretation exactly? *

 

* You already posted it before, but I'm asking again just to see if you're willing to clarify a little more.

 

I'm not talking here about my interpretation.

 

 

That's not true; even the whole OP in this thread contradicts that. But nice try.

 

Maybe you also forgot the kind of things I discussed in my older threads regarding the Quran (like the ones below):

 

- The Disjointed Letters

- Interconnectedness Between the Self, Memory, and God-Consciousness

- The Quran and the Self-Reference Effect

- "He frowned and turned away"

 

These are not examples of "hidden meanings", at least not in the Sufi sense. What you've done is actually very textual in nature, and you're just then connecting that to different theories or ideas. Sufism is diverse, but many hold a belief that the Qur'an has layers to it that become revealed to an individual through ascension to higher spiritual states. Some dimensions of Truth might be accessible to lay people, but others might only be made available to the awliya. The idea, then, is that the external meanings (Zahir) are there for the lay people, whereas the hidden meanings (Batin) are there for those who do the spiritual work. In other words, your demand for evidence from the Qur'an regarding the hidden meaning runs counter to the actual conception of a hidden meaning. It's not made true through textual analysis, but through attaining a certain spiritual state wherein God gives you special insights.

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I'm not talking here about my interpretation.

 

I know that's not your interpretation. I never even said that .......... but nice try! :P
So again, what's that interpretation?

These are not examples of "hidden meanings", at least not in the Sufi sense. What you've done is actually very textual in nature, and you're just then connecting that to different theories or ideas. Sufism is diverse, but many hold a belief that the Qur'an has layers to it that become revealed to an individual through ascension to higher spiritual states. Some dimensions of Truth might be accessible to lay people, but others might only be made available to the awliya. [...] It's not made true through textual analysis, but through attaining a certain spiritual state wherein God gives you special insights.

 

Then you should agree with the Sufi interpretation. But earlier you said that you're not sure and that you don't support it - why?

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I know that's not your interpretation. I never even said that .......... but nice try! :P

So again, what's that interpretation?

 

Oh, I misread it. Thought you said "your". The rest of my post explains the interpretation, though.

 

Then you should agree with the Sufi interpretation. But earlier you said that you're not sure and that you don't support it - why?

Why should I agree with it?
I don't disagree with it. It's just not where my interests are oriented.

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Why should I agree with it?

 

Because you said this:

 

"It's not made true through textual analysis, but through attaining a certain spiritual state wherein God gives you special insights."

 

So, you should just blindly accept that interpretation, even if you don't understand it.

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Because you said this:

 

"It's not made true through textual analysis, but through attaining a certain spiritual state wherein God gives you special insights."

 

So, you should just blindly accept that interpretation, even if you don't understand it.

 

Dude, I'm not saying my opinion on interpretation. I'm explaining a particular understanding.

 

I'm not saying you should blindly believe their interpretations. The hidden meanings are meant for those who have special access, they're not meant to be debated; they're not meant for someone like me, per such a view.

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I'm not saying you should blindly believe their interpretations.

 

Then that amounts to saying that maybe their interpretations are wrong (or fallible) even though "God gave them special insights" and "special access."

 

Impressive.

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