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Status and Responsibilities of Husband and Wife [split thread]

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Do you know what these rights are the husband has to give up?

yes.

as a start see http://maniacmuslim.ipbhost.com/index.php?/topic/12078-rights-in-marriage-for-women/

for serious study, search online for: shaykh hamza yusuf rights and responsibilities of marriage

 

Actually you should learn fiqh of marriage before you get married. Because lot of people get married without knowing their responsibilities and end up sinning.

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And lo and behold, now is the moment that you've been all waiting for ...

Dun dun duuuuuun

 

Because women have historically been kept out of those fields. I can't believe you are even asking "why is it that men have done all the great things?" Because women weren't allowed to.

 

First, I'll say that "Why is it that men have done all the great things" is a slight distortion of what I was actually asking (or rather making a point by asking). I don't actually believe that men did all the great things because, obviously, that's not true. So I wouldn't ask such a question. They have done most of the great things (i.e. making breakthroughs in science and math, being the pioneers of the greatest inventions, etc.), but not "all." So, that was your own (incorrect) wording.

Now, let me address the "because women were not allowed to" part.

While that statement is correct to some degree, that is not the whole reason why women have always lagged behind men in making achievements and discoveries in the technical fields.

Read about some of the other reasons:

Even in the hard sciences, women are making significant inroads. In the biological and agricultural sciences, women now receive 51 percent of Ph.D.’s. Also, women make up more than half of new medical doctors and more than 75 percent of new veterinarians.

Obviously, this is great news for women. But why do men still dominate the hard sciences and engineering? Several explanations have been proposed, including the understandably controversial yet biologically plausible hypothesis that men are genetically more likely to be outstanding at mathematical and spatial reasoning than women. This suggestion rarely goes over well; just ask Lawrence Summers.

The more likely explanation is simply one of preference: Women, for personal reasons, prefer not to enter the hard sciences. And that is exactly what recent research from Cornell University reveals:

Two psychological scientists have reviewed all of the evidence and concluded that the main factor is women’s choices — both freely made, such as that they’d rather study biology than math, and constrained, such as the fact that the difficult first years as a professor coincide with the time when many women are having children.

 

"The real reason why there are so fewer women in tech isn’t because of discrimination, harassment or unequal pay (although like I said these factors do exist and need to be fixed). The real reason is that most women clearly aren’t as interested in technology-related work as men are. It’s a choice. And for whatever reasons, more women seem to choose other fields." - Forbes

"Studies of college students find that women are more interested in organic and social fields, while men are more interested in systematizing things. And indeed, more than half of new medical doctors and biologists are women today - and in veterinary medicine, women are more than 75% of new graduates." - Psychological Science

"Also, women drop out of mathematics-heavy careers paths. Almost half of undergraduate math majors in the U.S. are women. A smaller percentage of women go into graduate school in math, and in 2006, women earned 29.6% of math PhDs. Women are also more likely to drop out after they start a job as a professor, often because they are unable to balance childcare with the huge workload required to get tenure. Young male professors are more likely than their female counterparts to have a stay-at-home spouse or partner who takes care of children." - Psychological Science

"Despite decades of global efforts to get more young women to study and pursue careers in math and science, girls still lag behind their male classmates in terms of academic performance and career aspirations in so-called STEM-related fields." - World Street Journal

("STEM" is an acronym for science, technology, engineering, mathematics).


All the above proves that sex discrimination is not the only reason why women lagged behind men in the technical fields. Discrimination is no longer a major factor nowadays, and yet we see that males compared to females excel in academic performance and especially in the STEM-related fields. And a second factor is, women usually choose not go into those fields, and that's perhaps because they are not confident enough, or they they find them too difficult, or they get lower grades in those subjects compared to men, or they aim for different careers than men do. There can be various reasons why women prefer not to go into those cognitively demanding fields as much as men do, despite there being no discrimination against them.

So, my earlier statement that men are generally better at complex and strategic thinking than women are is well-supported by both statistics and history. The "women have historically been kept out of those fields" is just a part of the answer why they haven't been able to dominate the technical fields as the men used to and still do.

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Now let us see who is more competent and capable for being the financial providers in a family.

The Department of Labor’s Time Use Survey, for example, finds that the average full-time working man spends 8.14 hours a day on the job, compared to 7.75 hours for the full-time working woman. Employees who work more likely earn more. Men working five percent longer than women alone explains about one-quarter of the wage gap.

There are numerous other factors that affect pay. Most fundamentally, men and women tend to gravitate toward different industries. Feminists may charge that women are socialized into lower-paying sectors of the economy. But women considering the decisions they’ve made likely have a different view. Women tend to seek jobs with regular hours, more comfortable conditions, little travel, and greater personal fulfillment. Often times, women are willing to trade higher pay for jobs with other characteristics that they find attractive.

Men, in contrast, often take jobs with less desirable characteristics in pursuit of higher pay. They work long hours and overnight shifts. They tar roofs in the sun, drive trucks across the country, toil in sewer systems, stand watch as prison guards, and risk injury on fishing boats, in coal mines, and in production plants. Such jobs pay more than others because otherwise no one would want to do them.

 

http://www.forbes.com/sites/realspin/2012/04/16/its-time-that-we-end-the-equal-pay-myth/

 

 

This "long hours problem," analyzed so insightfully by Robin Ely and Irene Padavic, is a key reason why the percentage of women in top jobs has stalled at about 14 percent, a number that has barely budged in the past decade. We can’t expect progress when the fast track that leads to top jobs requires a time commitment that excludes most mothers — and by extension, most women.

[...]

Not only is work devotion a "class act" — a way of enacting class status — it’s also a certain way of being a "real" man. Working long hours is seen as a "heroic activity," noted Cynthia Fuchs Epstein and her co-authors in their 1999 study of lawyers. Marianne Cooper’s study of engineers in Silicon Valley closely observes how working long hours turns pencil pushing or computer keyboarding into a manly test of physical endurance. "There’s a kind of machismo culture that you don’t sleep," one father told her. "Successful enactment of this masculinity," Cooper concludes, "involves displaying one’s exhaustion, physically and verbally, in order to convey the depth of one’s commitment, stamina, and virility."

 

https://hbr.org/2013/05/why-men-work-so-many-hours/

 

 

Additionally, men are less affected by poor sleep than their female counterparts. This, by extension, implies that men can work more efficiently under a sleep-deprived state than women can.

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Now let's connect the dots, given all the interesting knowledge that I just posted above.

"Men are the maintainers of women because Allah has made some of them to excel over others and because they spend out of their wealth." (Surah 4:34)

So, men are the maintainers of women (in general) because:
1. They excel over the women
2. They spend out of their wealth (i.e. for their wives and children)

 

Reason # 1:
"Men are the maintainers of women because Allah has made some of them to excel over others and because they spend out of their wealth." (Surah 4:34)

The verse does not specify exactly what the men excel in. The reason for not specifying might be that there many different things that they excel in. Among such things (or attributes) that they excel in may include their greater rights and responsibilities over their wives as scholars have insisted, along with other things such as strength, endurance (being able to work longer hours for example), leadership qualities, intelligence, etc. We can't rule out such possibilities.

 

Reason # 2:
"Men are the maintainers of women because Allah has made some of them to excel over others and because they spend out of their wealth." (Surah 4:34)

That indicates that men are the ones who contribute the most in order to meet the financial needs of their wives and children. Wives may do that also, but generally, the husbands tend to contribute the most. Scholars maintain that the spending that is referred to in the verse is total spending, and so it includes dowry and all the other expenditures that a man makes for his family. Therefore, generally, man is the dominant provider within a family system. And that is because they are the ones who are more competent than women as financial providers, given their superior natural abilities.

 

1. More Capable as a Provider = Greater Stamina for Working + Earns More + Spends More

2. More Capable as a Provider = More Responsibility as a Provider

Men, more than women, meet those qualities.


And since men have those two characteristics (as underlined in reason #s 1 and 2), it is more ethical that they be given the responsibility as maintainers of women.

 

 

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And why do women not choose these fields? I'm sure it has something to do with cultural norms and how they're raised, just like they are taught that they should know how to cook while teaching men that cooking is such a difficult task.

 

Like cubster said, all of this may make sense in an ideal world. This is not an ideal world so it makes more sense to have lengthy discussions about how it is now and how we can improve things now. I'm sure we can agree that in this century most people do not follow the strict guidelines of men being the sole and best provider for the family. From what I see, they are able to but they choose not to. Even basic things as providing child support when separated, men find difficulty in being responsible for children. On the other hand you will see women who are fully capable of cooking, cleaning, going to school, working, and caring for children all at the same time.

 

It makes more sense to find realistic solutions to the problems of men now than 100 years ago. How do you propose to bring men back to that ideal role of being best 'fit' as provider and sustainer?

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That women might not choose computer science and engineering doesn't mean they don't fill plenty of other fields and do well at those jobs. I'm really not getting your point in regards to women not being good at jobs that require mathematical and spacial reasoning. There are a number of very important fields (your text pointed out some) that women completely dominate. If women were to all become housemothers tomorrow, the world's economy would likely collapse. Females and males lead pretty similar lives today in terms of roles, ambitions, etc.. It's not something that is reversible and I don't think there's anything wrong with it.

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This thread is gross, and some of the posters here should be ashamed of themselves for propagating sexist nonsense that no educated Muslim should be spouting. Came back here after a long time to see what's going on and probably won't be returning.

 

The Prophet has spoken highly of women. If women are so inferior at logical thinking, why do we rely on Aisha for most of the Hadith?

 

There are REAL CULTURAL reasons why women tend to work less hours and forgo opportunities in computer science. Women are told from birth that their careers are less important and they need to be responsible for child-rearing. Hence why women pick less demanding careers.

 

I'm astonished by how illogical and frankly idiotic the arguments are on here. The best part is all the guys that are patting themselves on the back for being so intelligent.

 

Oh, also, since you're posting all these statistics on how men must be smarter because they are chess players, please explain the whole inferiority thing in regards to women having higher college graduation rates worldwide?

 

Your thinking is backwards and brings a bad name to Islam. This is why the perception of Islam so often is that its backwards and sexist, despite all the reforms the Prophet introduced for women.

 

This thread just makes me so angry. I feel so bad for Muslim women, that we have to put up with this kind of garbage. We deserve better.

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This thread is gross, and some of the posters here should be ashamed of themselves for propagating sexist nonsense that no educated Muslim should be spouting. Came back here after a long time to see what's going on and probably won't be returning.

 

The Prophet has spoken highly of women. If women are so inferior at logical thinking, why do we rely on Aisha for most of the Hadith?

 

There are REAL CULTURAL reasons why women tend to work less hours and forgo opportunities in computer science. Women are told from birth that their careers are less important and they need to be responsible for child-rearing. Hence why women pick less demanding careers.

 

I'm astonished by how illogical and frankly idiotic the arguments are on here. The best part is all the guys that are patting themselves on the back for being so intelligent.

 

Oh, also, since you're posting all these statistics on how men must be smarter because they are chess players, please explain the whole inferiority thing in regards to women having higher college graduation rates worldwide?

 

Your thinking is backwards and brings a bad name to Islam. This is why the perception of Islam so often is that its backwards and sexist, despite all the reforms the Prophet introduced for women.

 

This thread just makes me so angry. I feel so bad for Muslim women, that we have to put up with this kind of garbage. We deserve better.

 

Nice to see you on here! Don't make assumptions about the forum based on this one thread though, it's basically just two people on one side and everyone else on another. I agree with your post. I hope you're having a nice Ramadan and hope you'll come on time-to-time. (This is Musa, if you remember).

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The Prophet has spoken highly of women. If women are so inferior at logical thinking, why do we rely on Aisha for most of the Hadith?

 

I don't believe that women are "so inferior" at logical thinking. You're stretching my argument a little too far ...

 

I suggest that you read my posts a little more carefully.

 

There are REAL CULTURAL reasons why women tend to work less hours and forgo opportunities in computer science. Women are told from birth that their careers are less important and they need to be responsible for child-rearing. Hence why women pick less demanding careers.

 

And that's one of the main reasons why men, generally, are more capable of working than women. That is exactly the point that I've been trying to make.

 

So ... you've just given a further reasoning for my own arguments. :P

 

Your thinking is backwards and brings a bad name to Islam. This is why the perception of Islam so often is that its backwards and sexist, despite all the reforms the Prophet introduced for women.

 

I think you are getting way too emotional here, and that's not good. I don't think my comments are backwards and sexist. I mean, I've pretty much backed up everything that I've been saying in this thread with lengthy explanations, Quranic verses, and scholarly interpretations. You just have to read them more carefully and try to understand what I'm saying. I think you just did a very cursory reading of my posts and that's why you think that I'm being sexist and backwards.

 

And stay, please. Don't get so mad about what some random guy on the internet might say or think about something.

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How do you propose to bring men back to that ideal role of being best 'fit' as provider and sustainer?

 

Strangely, you may have forgotten that I said that the whole "men are the maintainers of women" is most likely a generalization, which I repeated so many times. I never said (nor implied) in any of my posts that it's an ideal role. My own mother still cooks, cleans, works, and cares for her children all at the same time, and I never objected to that. So yes, women can do all of that stuff at the same time. I don't really have any issue with that if they are capable and willing to do all those things. Also, didn't you read THIS post? Most probably you did.

 

So, you've basically misinterpreted what I said, but I'll forgive you. Maybe you just forgot what I said before, or maybe you didn't process it well enough. I can't really tell.

 

I'm really not getting your point in regards to women not being good at jobs that require mathematical and spacial reasoning.

 

The point was simply that men tend to better at complex and technical thinking than women are.

 

What the heavens, in one of her comments, expressed disapproval when I said that. And that's the reason I wanted to posted all those statistical information. That's all.

 

 

I still have more things to add to this thread. Just be patient, ladies and gentleman. ;)

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Strangely, you may have forgotten that I said that the whole "men are the maintainers of women" is only a generalization, which I repeated so many times. I never said (nor implied) in any of my posts that it's an ideal role. My own mother still cooks, cleans, works, and cares for her children all at the same time, and I never objected to that. So yes, women can do all of that stuff at the same time. I don't really have any issue with that if they are capable and willing to do all those things. Also, didn't you read THIS post? Most probably you did.

 

So, you've basically misinterpreted what I said, but I'll forgive you. Maybe you just forgot what I said before, or maybe you didn't process it well enough. I can't really tell.

 

 

The point was simply that men tend to better at complex and technical thinking than women are.

 

What the heavens, in one of her comments, expressed disapproval when I said that. And that's the reason I wanted to posted all those statistical information. That's all.

 

Lol I don't need to be forgiven by you Spider. No need to get smug with me. My post flew right by you it seems. I'm talking about the here and now and asked for a possible solution, for now. Regarding the statement that women need to be responsible for child rearing, that's the point you were trying to make? No, it takes two parents to raise a child.

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I'm talking about the here and now and asked for a possible solution, for now. Regarding the statement that women need to be responsible for child rearing, that's the point you were trying to make? No, it takes two parents to raise a child.

 

That still sounds like a misinterpretation. By agreeing that women need to be responsible for child rearing, what I mean is that, generally, women are MORE capable of doing that job than men are, and therefore culture has ingrained this logic into them from an early age that they should be the ones who have a greater responsibility for that job. So, of course, me saying that does NOT mean that the fathers can't get involved in raising children. I thought I didn't even need to explain that to you. :huh:

 

And so this cultural reason (i.e. that women are responsible for child rearing) also has a very logical reason behind it, and this is that women are naturally more capable of child rearing than men, generally speaking.

 

Sorry, I'll try to be less smug. Thanks for the reminder.

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That still sounds like a misinterpretation. By agreeing that women need to be responsible for child rearing, what I mean is that, generally, women are MORE capable of doing that job than men are, and therefore culture has ingrained this logic into them from an early age that they should be the ones who have a greater responsibility for that job. So, of course, me saying that does NOT mean that the fathers can't get involved in raising children. I thought I didn't even need to explain that to you. :huh:

 

And so this cultural reason (i.e. that women are responsible for child rearing) also has a very logical reason behind it, and this is that women are naturally more capable of child rearing than men, generally speaking.

 

Sorry, I'll try to be less smug. Thanks for the reminder.

 

It takes a man and a woman to properly raise a child. Not one woman, not one man, not two men and not two women.

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^ Did I ever say anything that conveys that it takes only a woman or only a man to raise a child?

 

If I did, then please quote it.

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