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How to disprove the Santa & God analogy used by Atheists?

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I'm getting quite weary of hearing about the argument proposed by Atheists.

 

1) Santa/Odin Allfather is more real than God

2) Both cannot be proven "What proof is there that the Qu'ran is real?"

3) Believing in sky fairies is like believing in God

4) People don't follow Santa's rules and it is why they don't get presents.

 

 

This draws on whether Science came before or after Islam, and if so give the proof?

I've put forward his weak claims that border on delusional thinking* (this part was countered with assertions to his Santa argument)

 

That Santa can be disproven with the investigation but I'm aware that I need help into providing a stronger argument.

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Saying the Quran is reality is not a counter argument to his assertion that it is fantasy.

 

Sorry I must've changed it while editing. You're right

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I'm getting quite weary of hearing about the argument proposed by Atheists.

 

1) Santa/Odin Allfather is more real than God

2) Both cannot be proven "What proof is there that the Qu'ran is real?"

3) Believing in sky fairies is like believing in God

4) People don't follow Santa's rules and it is why they don't get presents.

 

 

This draws on whether Science came before or after Islam, and if so give the proof?

I've put forward his weak claims that border on delusional thinking* (this part was edited and I've removed it so I don't confuse anyone else as much!)

 

That Santa can be disproven with the investigation but I'm aware that I need help into providing a stronger argument.

 

i don't have time right now to go in to details, but there are layers of logical fallacies and bad assumptions. To properly answer, a lot of deconstruction is needed.

But in the meantime, a question for you: Why do you believe in Allah? Why do you believe he exists? Why do you think the atheist friend believes that Oden doesn't exist?

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Spud, I didn't counter him with that, I meant to say that I called him out on thinking in fantasies rather than the reality in the Qu'ran.

 

Haku, I believe in the ayahs, the values, the spiritual conviction, the morals and the wisdom. I believe the verses hold meaning and significance to every person & that God guides whom he wills. I believe in the existence of God, as the world was created by something bigger than all of us.

 

I think he has always rebelled against all forms of religion & seems to interpret it in a skeptical way to look for mistakes. His arguments about believing in Santa seem to follow a trend of Atheist thinkers, anything that supports the idea of a God is rejected & countered with another fallacy.

 

He does seem to believe that something bigger exists, but he does not know what exactly. Despite having the Qu'ran translation he doesn't investigate it.

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First of all, it's a very bad argument because God's attributes as we believe in are nothing like Santa. In Islam, God is one and unique. He is not even remotely comparable to anything: "He begets not, nor was He begotten. And there is none like unto Him" (Surah 112:3-4).


That said, I think it is more effective to use arguments that are more intuitive instead of ones that are so constrained by logic. You can ask him (rhetorically), "Do you think that the complexity and order that we see in this universe merely a byproduct of blind and accidental forces? Is it really possible that the countless dust particles floating in space were just floating there and eventually somehow they were able organize themselves into eyes, ears, brains, and the myriad of complex living things that we see around us? How can all of this happen just by accident?"


Now we come to the main problem with atheistic arguments. That is, atheists can't accept the idea that God cannot be captured in a formal axiomatic reasoning system. Allah is beyond comprehension and therefore you cannot explain or understand His existence through formal modes of rationalization, and not even with our own imagination, as Allah says:


"No vision can grasp Him, but His grasp is over all vision. He is above all comprehension, yet is acquainted with all things" (Surah 6:103).


Furthermore, understand that logic itself has limitations as demonstrated by one of the greatest logicians named Kurt Godel. In his Incompleteness Theorem, he demonstrated that even in mathematical systems there are certain axiomatic statements which are true but they cannot be proved to be true. In other words, they just have to be accepted to be true without proof. Therefore, logic is "incomplete." And so he fundamentally destroyed the idea that logic is absolute.


"Gödel showed that provability is a weaker notion than truth, no matter what axiom system is involved "



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Just ask them if they believe someone or something is more powerful than them.

 

You believe in the most powerful thing being the creator.

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First of all, it's a very bad argument because God's attributes as we believe in are nothing like Santa. In Islam, God is one and unique. He is not even remotely comparable to anything: "He begets not, nor was He begotten. And there is none like unto Him" (Surah 112:3-4). ​The comparison isn't to say that God is like Santa, but that God is made up like Santa. Think of that what you will.
That said, I think it is more effective to use arguments that are more intuitive instead of ones that are so constrained by logic. You can ask him (rhetorically), "Do you think that the complexity and order that we see in this universe merely a byproduct of blind and accidental forces? Is it really possible that the countless dust particles floating in space were just floating there and eventually somehow they were able organize themselves into eyes, ears, brains, and the myriad of complex living things that we see around us? How can all of this happen just by accident?" ​While I somewhat agree with your first point here, your second point about eyes and ears can be shrugged off by evolution. Though I think there is something to be said about your first point. The laws of nature can be expressed very elegantly and certainly hint that they may have been designed. However the more fundamental question is why do the laws of Physics exist at all. This is something no one can answer apart from the religious (ie God did it). However this is what is known as God of the gaps, ie saying things are because of God because we cant explain them yet. ​And then after that you have the issue of dealing with what makes the Islamic god the one true god.
Now we come to the main problem with atheistic arguments. That is, atheists can't accept the idea that God cannot be captured in a formal axiomatic reasoning system. Allah is beyond comprehension and therefore you cannot explain or understand His existence through formal modes of rationalization, and not even with our own imagination, as Allah says:
"No vision can grasp Him, but His grasp is over all vision. He is above all comprehension, yet is acquainted with all things" (Surah 6:103). ​Ok this kinda makes sense. Perhaps Humans wouldn't really have the framework necessary to completely describe an all powerful entity that created space and time and resides outside of it. But then if you cannot comprehend God, how can you convince yourself to believe in him.
Furthermore, understand that logic itself has limitations as demonstrated by one of the greatest logicians named Kurt Godel. In his Incompleteness Theorem, he demonstrated that even in mathematical systems there are certain axiomatic statements which are true but they cannot be proved to be true. In other words, they just have to be accepted to be true without proof. Therefore, logic is "incomplete." And so he fundamentally destroyed the idea that logic is absolute.
"Gödel showed that provability is a weaker notion than truth, no matter what axiom system is involved "

 

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The comparison isn't to say that God is like Santa, but that God is made up like Santa. Think of that what you will.

 

We know that Santa is made up, unlike God, so it's a bad argument.

 

While I somewhat agree with your first point here, your second point about eyes and ears can be shrugged off by evolution.

 

I wouldn't say evolution reduces the mystery and beauty of creation, either.

 

A lot of atheists fall into a shallow and simplistic reasoning by thinking "We are here because of evolution, therefore no God haha!" But, afterall, God is also the creator of the natural laws that govern the universe and thus ultimately He is the One that created us, not evolution. So all the natural laws are under God's control and under His will. He can do anything and create anything He wants to, whenever and however.

 

Though I think there is something to be said about your first point. The laws of nature can be expressed very elegantly and certainly hint that they may have been designed. However the more fundamental question is why do the laws of Physics exist at all. This is something no one can answer apart from the religious (ie God did it). However this is what is known as God of the gaps, ie saying things are because of God because we cant explain them yet.

 

When we can't explain something, we are hardwired to jump to a conclusion, something that best explains the question at hand. So when you look at the stars, the mountains, the alternation of night and day, the variety of living things and how each of them are uniquely adapted for survival and so on, you feel totally awestruck and then you automatically think that there must be an intelligent designer behind all these marvelous things. This is the intuitive part of brain that makes us jump to that conclusion, and it shows that the person is intelligent. You could also call it a "leap of faith" to borrow a phrase, but without it, we wouldn't be human. We'd be like robots, machines, and computers.
"Indeed, in the creation of the heavens and the earth, and the alternation of the night and the day, and the ships which sail through the sea with that which benefits people, and what Allah has sent down from the heavens of rain, giving life thereby to the earth after its lifelessness and dispersing therein every kind of moving creature, and His directing of the winds and the clouds controlled between the heaven and the earth are signs for a people who understand." (Surah 2:164)
"Indeed, in the creation of the heavens and the earth, and in the alternation of night and day, there are indeed signs for men of understanding." (Surah 3:190)

 

And then after that you have the issue of dealing with what makes the Islamic god the one true god.

 

That requires a more sincere and deeper study of Islam, the Quran, etc. Utlimately, however, this matter rests on Allah's guidance.

 

​Ok this kinda makes sense. Perhaps Humans wouldn't really have the framework necessary to completely describe an all powerful entity that created space and time and resides outside of it. But then if you cannot comprehend God, how can you convince yourself to believe in him.

 

1. You can't "convince" yourself to believe in God. You either believe in Him or you don't.
2. You don't necessarily have to understand every aspect of a particular thing/entity in order to be convinced of it's existence.
3. You, me, and all human beings already have within themselves a latent knowledge of who Allah is and it is known as fitrah. We don't understand the precise nature of Allah's attributes but we do understand them to some degree at least.

More with regards to # 3:

 

CPRJ135.jpg

 

Source: Yasir Qadhi, An Introduction to the Sciences of the Quran, p. 212

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I think your first counterpoint is not very good at all. How do know God isn't made up? As to your second point - human intuition can be very poor and certainly isn't a proper counter argument. None of these things would convince an atheist who is asking for proof.

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I think your first counterpoint is not very good at all. How do know God isn't made up? As to your second point - human intuition can be very poor and certainly isn't a proper counter argument. None of these things would convince an atheist who is asking for proof.

 

If God was made up then we wouldn't even be having this debate right now, because we wouldn't exist. So, this exchange that we are having is itself a proof of God, every single word that I am typing here. Otherwise where did my ability to write and communicate ideas come from?

 

I know atheists won't be convinced with intuitive reasoning and such, but that's the most rational you can be with them. Are you going to sit down and explain mathematical equations to them to prove that God exists? Of course not. So what else can you do? The verses that I quoted earlier speak about "men of understanding" who automatically see signs of God's existence in the familiar and everyday phenomena in the heavens and the earth. To them, that is proof. Now what exactly do you think might constitute as "proof" for an atheist?

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If God was made up then we wouldn't even be having this debate right now, because we wouldn't exist. So, this exchange that we are having is itself a proof of God, every single word that I am typing here. Otherwise where did my ability to write and communicate ideas come from?

 

well there are other possibilities. What you have done is present a theory and said it is fact

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You're speaking about the fundamental atheist argument. It's not an argument that can be won. There is no proof. What we have that they do not is faith. Faith. Faith. Faith.

 

you can have faith about anything. What makes yours special. Don't tell me, "God gave it to me."

 

This is a huge issue when it comes to confronting atheism and dying belief. Honestly it sounds like circular logic

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See the problem, like Haku says, is supposedly complicated and layered. That's the form of their argument. The lines of thought are basically asking for scientific proof. As if Allah(swt) were an inanimate object. Finding proof to be discovered, examined, controlled. How can we possibly answer that?

Out of our grasp, Allah will always be.

 

The marketplace is a powerful force. All of the characters you've mentioned, and the attributes we assume they have come from slick and ubiquitous marketing campaigns beginning from the 1800's and continuing until now. Popular fiction and popular mythology

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